6 ms·

Germany says Cold War tactics don't help EU-US trade talks

208 points by NonEUCitizen 13y ago

mtgx 13y ago
"Trittin said that in response to the latest revelations, the EU should suspend exchanging banking and flight data with the United States." I wasn't aware the US actually "exchanges" any passenger data with the EU. I thought it's just EU giving them the data. So he probably means "EU needs to stop giving data to US". Usually, these deals are one-sided, in that they only serve US.
- tome 13y ago
  > Usually, these deals are one-sided, in that they only serve US. Then why would the EU enter into them?
  - LinaLauneBaer 13y ago
    So that the US can do the "dirty work". We give the data to the US and, of course, the US only uses the data to fight terrorism. I think our politicians knew that the US was doing more with the data than they said. But since this kind of data usage is not really aceptable in large parts of the EU we simply gave the data to the US to get the job done. Then the politicians could say "we are not using your data and the US is only using it to fight terrorism" but in fact there was much more going on and everybody knew that.
    - muuck 13y ago
      Not sure what you're implying here. The EU gives data to the US about Europeans flying to the US. Then the US does the EU's dirt work? And after this "dirty work" is processed does the US play the data back to the EU?
      - LinaLauneBaer 13y ago
        Yes. That is what I am saying. It is not only the data about europeans flying to the US. The US also knows almost every bank transaction made via SWIFT...
    - theorique 13y ago
      Same thing with the US and "enhanced interrogation". We can say: "oh, we just gave that prisoner to the Saudis and they promised they would treat him appropriately and really, really not torture him, Scout's honor... They did seem to get some information from him that we weren't able to get, though, not sure how. Maybe something was lost in translation..."
- brown9-2 13y ago
  Do you have a source for your last two statements? The idea that European intelligence agencies aren't interested in any data that the US could give them seems absurd.
NonEUCitizen 13y ago
Also, from Der Spiegel: http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=de&to=en&a=http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/spaehaffaere-trittin-fordert-schutz-fuer-snowden-von-deutschland-a-908698.html http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=de&to=en&a=h...
rumcajz 13y ago
Yes. Exactly. This is the least we can do in the Europe. There are at least 3 reasons to do so: 1. This way we can signal we mean it with the democracy thing. 2. We can prevent random despot to claim moral superiority to EU because of granting the asylum. 3. EU is relatively safe from US revenge, unlike smaller countries.
- kriro 13y ago
  The fact that Germany was spied on massively and it didn't seem that they were all that aware of it and the fact that the US has well established channels from the cold war there would mean that I wouldn't exactly feel safe if that was my safe haven. Would be interesting to create a "how safe are you from foreign nations' assassination/capturing etc. here" index. For the pairing Germany-USA I'd say not very safe.
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    The CIA can get you anywhere, as can Mossad or pretty much any other agency. Heck, even Libya managed attacks in western countries. It's just that diplomatic repercussions or outright war are usually enough of a deterrent. In this particular case, the US can't do anything about it. Obama said he won't use fighter jets to get Snowden. If he fails on even that concrete specific and understandable promise, then he can kiss a good deal of American influence in the world goodbye.
    - gngeal 13y ago
      Obama said he won't use fighter jets to get Snowden Meet Suspiciously Specific Denial: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SuspiciouslySpecificDenial/RealLife http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SuspiciouslySpecificDe... (alternatvely combined with Exact Words: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactWords http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactWords)
anon1385 13y ago
I'm not sure the protection of the German state is something the US will care about: Khalid El-Masri (born June 29, 1963) is a German citizen who was mistakenly abducted by the Macedonian Police, and handed-over to the U.S. CIA, whose officers interrogated, sodomized and tortured him. While in CIA hands, he was flown to Afghanistan, where he was held in a black site, interrogated, beaten, strip-searched and subjected to inhuman and degrading treatment, tantamount to torture. After El-Masri held hunger strikes, and was detained for four months in the "Salt Pit", the CIA finally admitted his arrest and torture were a mistake and released him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_al-Masri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_al-Masri
- andrewcooke 13y ago
  snowden is a white american. americans don't (in general - see reactions here to nsa) care about foreigners (especially coloured ones - guantanamo), but they get upset if a white american is hurt. so this won't happen with him.
  - artto 13y ago
    Remember Bradley Manning?
    - andrewcooke 13y ago
      ah, true. he's gay? maybe that makes him an honorary black? i don't fully understand. any americans here can help me? is there anyone you stick up for? or is it just a big game of last under the bus wins?
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - trotsky 13y ago
        rich white people
      - pekk 13y ago
nolok 13y ago
French's Green party made the same request during the night (asking to grant him asylum in France) http://www.lemonde.fr/technologies/article/2013/07/01/eelv-demande-a-la-france-d-accorder-l-asile-a-snowden_3439255_651865.html http://www.lemonde.fr/technologies/article/2013/07/01/eelv-d...
ramblerman 13y ago
I'm actually suprised Russia,Ecuador, and Iceland were the only viable candidates mentioned for Snowden. Although not a certainty I would imagine Belgium, France, and Germany would be good candidates also.
- JanezStupar 13y ago
  That is because beyond rhetoric. EU countries are mere colonies of the US and EU politicians will not do anything if they do not get a nod from the US. EU is not independent and is a mere satellite of the US. I feel sorry for feel good hipsters that currently feel superior to the US in terms of freedom and democracy.
  - ramblerman 13y ago
    "I feel sorry for feel good hipsters that currently feel superior to the US in terms of freedom and democracy." hmm, not sure why you felt the need to add that part. Were you even responding to my question or just reading off an internal script :P As far as freedom goes, I can only speak for Belgium, my country. I am certainly envious of the economic freedom you see in the US. We have slid a little too far to the left over here. We also don't have the same level of free speech as the US: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)#Domestic_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negatio...) That being said, I won't be jailed for smoking a joint or experimenting with psychedelics. Our government isn't secretive and elusive in the way yours is and I'm not terrified of ever landing in prison here.
    - JanezStupar 13y ago
      This is a general add on as you noticed. The part about EU politicians talking the talk, but not walking the walk is a response to your comment :D
    - 67726e 13y ago
      > We also don't have the same level of free speech as the US Don't take free speech at face value. While theoretically you do have free speech, we have a large amount of overly-broad crimes one can commit. If you do or say something that a person of power doesn't like, they can and will use a different law to get you for it. It then boils down to, one being willing to spend years of one's life and absurd amounts of money trying to fight this charge, or just dealing with the charge and hoping it doesn't end horribly.
simfoo 13y ago
Please, whenever you read something about German politicians these days, keep in mind that there's an election this fall...
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Then why isn't Merkel demanding the same?
  - LinaLauneBaer 13y ago
    Because she is from a conservative party which is more or less "okay" with surveillance. She is not saying the same because she wants to play conservative and differentiate herself from the Greens/Left Party and SPD.
    - qwertzlcoatl 13y ago
      More or less is inaccurate. They are pushing strong surveillance acts. In fact just today the "Bestandsdatenauskunft" was made law. The law means, “that police and intelligence services will in the future be allowed to obtain extremely personal information about mobile phone users, and do so with the press of a button and without having to face any major legal hurdles”.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - kriro 13y ago
    Traditional "Merkelian" politics is basically...wait until stuff blows over and let others make a fool of themselves. Same policy that Kohl followed ("Aussitzen") :) I think this has some potential of losing her the elections though. Mostly because it seems the Greens will gain most from all of this.
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    Because she is actually in power and would have to live with all the repercussions. Oppositional politicians don't have that problem and can talk all day long about what the people like to hear.
Lapsa 13y ago
i don't mind him putting tent in my garden too. would get bit cold when autumn hits though.
Uchikoma 13y ago
Not here in Berlin please, I don't want Reaper strikes here. Thanks.
bartman 13y ago
When they say "Germany's third largest party" it's important to know that they only hold about 11% of the seats of the German Parliament (Bundestag) right now and are unlikely to affect matters in this case.
- v0lta 13y ago
  That's definitly right, but the demand of the greens is all over the media here. I don't think, that Snowden will really get safe haven in Europe, but it's nice to see that a lot of Germans would approve it. The outrage reaches the mainstream.
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  For context, the first and second party got 34% and 23% of votes respectively. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_2009
- sveme 13y ago
  True, but due to proportional representation, smaller parties play a much larger role in German politics than, say, the UK or the US. Just a shift of about three percent from the current coalition of CDU and FDP to the SPD and Greens in the upcoming election would end Merkel's reign. And the NSA story might be just the event that moves those three percent from the current coalition to the opposition.
  - rwissmann 13y ago
    Yes, if anything the Greens as the third largest party play a much bigger role in German politics than someone from an American or Commonwealth background would intuitively expect.
  - mahrz 13y ago
    Most probably the minister of foreign affairs would be coming from the green party in such a case. Though that might change their rethoric a bit.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  That's the exception. Also I really doubt that it is harder to extract Snowden out of Ecuador than out of Germany...
lispm 13y ago
It would be great, but in reality Snowden would not be safe in Germany. We still have tens of thousands US military personel (the US central commands for Europe and Africa are here) and lots of US intelligence agencies active here. The US were also using Germany to transfer their secret prisoners to the torture prisons in East Europe. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/cia-folter-in-polen-im-wald-des-schreckens-1.1593451 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/cia-folter-in-polen-im-wa...
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>Seibert (Merkel's representative) brushed aside a suggestion by the opposition Greens that the EU should provide a safe haven for Snowden. Merkel isn't on board yet.

208 points by NonEUCitizen 13y ago

mtgx 13y ago

"Trittin said that in response to the latest revelations, the EU should suspend exchanging banking and flight data with the United States." I wasn't aware the US actually "exchanges" any passenger data with the EU. I thought it's just EU giving them the data. So he probably means "EU needs to stop giving data to US". Usually, these deals are one-sided, in that they only serve US.

tome 13y ago
> Usually, these deals are one-sided, in that they only serve US. Then why would the EU enter into them?
- LinaLauneBaer 13y ago
  So that the US can do the "dirty work". We give the data to the US and, of course, the US only uses the data to fight terrorism. I think our politicians knew that the US was doing more with the data than they said. But since this kind of data usage is not really aceptable in large parts of the EU we simply gave the data to the US to get the job done. Then the politicians could say "we are not using your data and the US is only using it to fight terrorism" but in fact there was much more going on and everybody knew that.
  - muuck 13y ago
    Not sure what you're implying here. The EU gives data to the US about Europeans flying to the US. Then the US does the EU's dirt work? And after this "dirty work" is processed does the US play the data back to the EU?
    - LinaLauneBaer 13y ago
      Yes. That is what I am saying. It is not only the data about europeans flying to the US. The US also knows almost every bank transaction made via SWIFT...
  - theorique 13y ago
    Same thing with the US and "enhanced interrogation". We can say: "oh, we just gave that prisoner to the Saudis and they promised they would treat him appropriately and really, really not torture him, Scout's honor... They did seem to get some information from him that we weren't able to get, though, not sure how. Maybe something was lost in translation..."
brown9-2 13y ago
Do you have a source for your last two statements? The idea that European intelligence agencies aren't interested in any data that the US could give them seems absurd.

NonEUCitizen 13y ago

Also, from Der Spiegel: http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=de&to=en&a=http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/spaehaffaere-trittin-fordert-schutz-fuer-snowden-von-deutschland-a-908698.html http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=de&to=en&a=h...

rumcajz 13y ago

Yes. Exactly. This is the least we can do in the Europe. There are at least 3 reasons to do so: 1. This way we can signal we mean it with the democracy thing. 2. We can prevent random despot to claim moral superiority to EU because of granting the asylum. 3. EU is relatively safe from US revenge, unlike smaller countries.

kriro 13y ago
The fact that Germany was spied on massively and it didn't seem that they were all that aware of it and the fact that the US has well established channels from the cold war there would mean that I wouldn't exactly feel safe if that was my safe haven. Would be interesting to create a "how safe are you from foreign nations' assassination/capturing etc. here" index. For the pairing Germany-USA I'd say not very safe.
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  The CIA can get you anywhere, as can Mossad or pretty much any other agency. Heck, even Libya managed attacks in western countries. It's just that diplomatic repercussions or outright war are usually enough of a deterrent. In this particular case, the US can't do anything about it. Obama said he won't use fighter jets to get Snowden. If he fails on even that concrete specific and understandable promise, then he can kiss a good deal of American influence in the world goodbye.
  - gngeal 13y ago
    Obama said he won't use fighter jets to get Snowden Meet Suspiciously Specific Denial: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SuspiciouslySpecificDenial/RealLife http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SuspiciouslySpecificDe... (alternatvely combined with Exact Words: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactWords http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactWords)

anon1385 13y ago

I'm not sure the protection of the German state is something the US will care about: Khalid El-Masri (born June 29, 1963) is a German citizen who was mistakenly abducted by the Macedonian Police, and handed-over to the U.S. CIA, whose officers interrogated, sodomized and tortured him. While in CIA hands, he was flown to Afghanistan, where he was held in a black site, interrogated, beaten, strip-searched and subjected to inhuman and degrading treatment, tantamount to torture. After El-Masri held hunger strikes, and was detained for four months in the "Salt Pit", the CIA finally admitted his arrest and torture were a mistake and released him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_al-Masri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_al-Masri

andrewcooke 13y ago
snowden is a white american. americans don't (in general - see reactions here to nsa) care about foreigners (especially coloured ones - guantanamo), but they get upset if a white american is hurt. so this won't happen with him.
- artto 13y ago
  Remember Bradley Manning?
  - andrewcooke 13y ago
    ah, true. he's gay? maybe that makes him an honorary black? i don't fully understand. any americans here can help me? is there anyone you stick up for? or is it just a big game of last under the bus wins?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - trotsky 13y ago
      rich white people
    - pekk 13y ago

nolok 13y ago

French's Green party made the same request during the night (asking to grant him asylum in France) http://www.lemonde.fr/technologies/article/2013/07/01/eelv-demande-a-la-france-d-accorder-l-asile-a-snowden_3439255_651865.html http://www.lemonde.fr/technologies/article/2013/07/01/eelv-d...

ramblerman 13y ago

I'm actually suprised Russia,Ecuador, and Iceland were the only viable candidates mentioned for Snowden. Although not a certainty I would imagine Belgium, France, and Germany would be good candidates also.

JanezStupar 13y ago
That is because beyond rhetoric. EU countries are mere colonies of the US and EU politicians will not do anything if they do not get a nod from the US. EU is not independent and is a mere satellite of the US. I feel sorry for feel good hipsters that currently feel superior to the US in terms of freedom and democracy.
- ramblerman 13y ago
  "I feel sorry for feel good hipsters that currently feel superior to the US in terms of freedom and democracy." hmm, not sure why you felt the need to add that part. Were you even responding to my question or just reading off an internal script :P As far as freedom goes, I can only speak for Belgium, my country. I am certainly envious of the economic freedom you see in the US. We have slid a little too far to the left over here. We also don't have the same level of free speech as the US: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)#Domestic_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negatio...) That being said, I won't be jailed for smoking a joint or experimenting with psychedelics. Our government isn't secretive and elusive in the way yours is and I'm not terrified of ever landing in prison here.
  - JanezStupar 13y ago
    This is a general add on as you noticed. The part about EU politicians talking the talk, but not walking the walk is a response to your comment :D
  - 67726e 13y ago
    > We also don't have the same level of free speech as the US Don't take free speech at face value. While theoretically you do have free speech, we have a large amount of overly-broad crimes one can commit. If you do or say something that a person of power doesn't like, they can and will use a different law to get you for it. It then boils down to, one being willing to spend years of one's life and absurd amounts of money trying to fight this charge, or just dealing with the charge and hoping it doesn't end horribly.

simfoo 13y ago

Please, whenever you read something about German politicians these days, keep in mind that there's an election this fall...

PavlovsCat 13y ago
Then why isn't Merkel demanding the same?
- LinaLauneBaer 13y ago
  Because she is from a conservative party which is more or less "okay" with surveillance. She is not saying the same because she wants to play conservative and differentiate herself from the Greens/Left Party and SPD.
  - qwertzlcoatl 13y ago
    More or less is inaccurate. They are pushing strong surveillance acts. In fact just today the "Bestandsdatenauskunft" was made law. The law means, “that police and intelligence services will in the future be allowed to obtain extremely personal information about mobile phone users, and do so with the press of a button and without having to face any major legal hurdles”.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- kriro 13y ago
  Traditional "Merkelian" politics is basically...wait until stuff blows over and let others make a fool of themselves. Same policy that Kohl followed ("Aussitzen") :) I think this has some potential of losing her the elections though. Mostly because it seems the Greens will gain most from all of this.
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  Because she is actually in power and would have to live with all the repercussions. Oppositional politicians don't have that problem and can talk all day long about what the people like to hear.

Lapsa 13y ago

i don't mind him putting tent in my garden too. would get bit cold when autumn hits though.

Uchikoma 13y ago

Not here in Berlin please, I don't want Reaper strikes here. Thanks.

bartman 13y ago

When they say "Germany's third largest party" it's important to know that they only hold about 11% of the seats of the German Parliament (Bundestag) right now and are unlikely to affect matters in this case.

v0lta 13y ago
That's definitly right, but the demand of the greens is all over the media here. I don't think, that Snowden will really get safe haven in Europe, but it's nice to see that a lot of Germans would approve it. The outrage reaches the mainstream.
mtrimpe 13y ago
For context, the first and second party got 34% and 23% of votes respectively. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_2009
sveme 13y ago
True, but due to proportional representation, smaller parties play a much larger role in German politics than, say, the UK or the US. Just a shift of about three percent from the current coalition of CDU and FDP to the SPD and Greens in the upcoming election would end Merkel's reign. And the NSA story might be just the event that moves those three percent from the current coalition to the opposition.
- rwissmann 13y ago
  Yes, if anything the Greens as the third largest party play a much bigger role in German politics than someone from an American or Commonwealth background would intuitively expect.
- mahrz 13y ago
  Most probably the minister of foreign affairs would be coming from the green party in such a case. Though that might change their rethoric a bit.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

bayesianhorse 13y ago
That's the exception. Also I really doubt that it is harder to extract Snowden out of Ecuador than out of Germany...

lispm 13y ago

It would be great, but in reality Snowden would not be safe in Germany. We still have tens of thousands US military personel (the US central commands for Europe and Africa are here) and lots of US intelligence agencies active here. The US were also using Germany to transfer their secret prisoners to the torture prisons in East Europe. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/cia-folter-in-polen-im-wald-des-schreckens-1.1593451 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/cia-folter-in-polen-im-wa...

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

>Seibert (Merkel's representative) brushed aside a suggestion by the opposition Greens that the EU should provide a safe haven for Snowden. Merkel isn't on board yet.