3 ms·

It's not really very controversial. If you need your car, and you can't afford to buy a new engine if it breaks, as far as I can tell you'd be certainly well ad

by to3m 13y ago

It's not really very controversial. If you need your car, and you can't afford to buy a new engine if it breaks, as far as I can tell you'd be certainly well advised not run a modern diesel car without a warranty. I don't know anybody who's owned one who hasn't had various funny problems with it, requiring regular trips to the garage followed by shrugging shoulders all round and a succession of replacement of random electronic parts. To meet the increasingly stringent emissions controls, and people's desire for a car that is reasonably cheap and accelerates at a decent rate, the cars seem to have become rather complicated, and reliability has been affected. Common points of failure seem to be: - dual mass flywheel (presumably the regular swift ramping-up of torque doesn't help) - turbo charger (obviously spins very quickly and unlike a petrol engine it comes on from about 1500rpm so it's used a lot) - diesel injectors (high precision components operating under pressure) - diesel particulate filter (can clog and require expensive replacement if car is not regularly driven hard) - random engine/ECU "thing" that nobody can figure out (who knows what the root cause of this might be) You might have better luck with a pre-common rail diesel car, but the fuel economy is unlikely to be very good and the performance - at least by modern standards - looks to be terrible.

grumps 13y ago
The more electronic "stuffs" the greater the chance of an issue with it. What engines are you referring to in particular? Any brand in mind? Some manufacturers have been making diesels for a long time despite the emergence of common rail I'd suspect they would have most of this resolved now unless it's planned obsolescence
- to3m 13y ago
  VW, Mercedes Benz and BMW are the brands I have these anecdotes for specifically. But reading on forums, it seems people have a lot of problems with modern diesel cars them generally. This is not exactly scientific, but the issue crops up at times in UK motoring and not-so-motoring press. Sample links: http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/mar/02/turbo-charged-cost-of-diesel-cars http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/mar/02/turbo-charged-co... http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2332107/Petrol-vs-diesel-cars-Drivers-warned-diesel-filter-trap.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2332107/Petr... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9407960/The-hidden-cost-of-diesel-cars.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9407960/The-hidden-... http://www.which.co.uk/news/2012/07/petrol-cars-cheaper-to-run-than-diesel-291241/ http://www.which.co.uk/news/2012/07/petrol-cars-cheaper-to-r...
  - grumps 13y ago
    Thx
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>- turbo charger (obviously spins very quickly and unlike a petrol engine it comes on from about 1500rpm so it's used a lot) What's with the turbocharger FUD in here today? BTW 1500 RPM is 1/2 or 2/3 the way to the redline on many diesels, so it's not really used more than it would be on a gasoline engine. >- diesel injectors (high precision components operating under pressure) Really simple devices in principle, can get expensive for some vehicles when the engineers have gone around the bend with new features (Mercedes Sprinter, I'm looking at you). >- diesel particulate filter (can clog and require expensive replacement if car is not regularly driven hard) No experience with them. >- random engine/ECU "thing" that nobody can figure out (who knows what the root cause of this might be) Nonsense. This is a mechanic/technician training issue. Diesel ECU's are no more complicated than for a gasoline engine. I'm really surprised to see anyone on HN play the "Dang them fancy computers is too complicated fer me." card.
fus 13y ago
dual mass flywheel: irrelevant for the US market (think older torque converter automatic; new ones have dual mass flywheel for gasoline engines too). diesel injectors: direct gasoline injectors are very similar. turbo: common in modern gasoline engines due to downsizing and direct injection. particulate filter: while I respect the following statement: "The cheapest, fastest and most reliable components are those that aren’t there." (Gordon Bell), thermal efficiency of a diesel cycle may make it worth. ECU faults: those actually help with solving problems before they are serious. Please go to qualified workshops! Computers are no longer a dark magic.
- to3m 13y ago
  I haven't heard great things about modern smaller-capacity direct injection turbocharged petrol engines either, though the economy figures always sound excellent. As for the problems I describe, I am merely relaying issues I have heard people complain about! If people take their car to a non-franchised garage, or do things themselves, ECU errors tend to get them going to the official garage because only they have the appropriate equipment. But this always seems to be a bit hit or miss, requiring multiple visits. People's suggestions that diesel engines are extra-reliable seem to be somewhat wide of the mark. Ye olde diesel engine of yore was simple, slow, noisy, dirty, and would run forever; thanks to modern technology, that all seems to have changed...
  - bradleyland 13y ago
    The data doesn't support many of your views. Specifically, the claim that modern engines are somehow less reliable than the "good old days". I know you're only reporting anecdotes from people you'd consider to have a good view on the matter, but you have to keep in mind the biases involved with those views. A mechanic sees nothing but broken cars all day long. Their views are going to be skewed by their experience. Those views are not reflective of the much greater population of vehicles that experience no problems at all. The reality is that cars have never been more reliable: http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/02/when-it-comes-to-new-vehicles-todays-models-are-cheaper-and-more-reliable-than-ever-before/ http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/02/when-it-comes-to-new-vehicl... > “The long-term dependability of three-year-old models has improved year-over-year, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2013 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study. > “In 2013, overall vehicle dependability averages 126 PP100–a five percent improvement from the 2012 average of 132 PP100–and is the lowest problem count since the inception of the study in 1989.” Simplicity makes engines easier to work on for the layman, but it doesn't necessarily make them more reliable. I'm a total gear head. My love affair with cars started really early. At 3, I figured out how to use a screw driver by taking the tail lights off my dad's VW Beetle. At age 7, I helped my dad tear a VW Beetle's 4-cylinder boxer engine down to the case halves, then put it back together. I was infatuated with the process and the understanding that came with every part we removed and reassembled. I often wonder whether my father and I could have accomplished the same with (just an example) the new Ford Ecoboost 1.0L 3-cylinder, but I recognize that giving up that simplicity has resulted in an overall improvement in reliability and quality for the vast majority of drivers.

by to3m 13y ago

grumps 13y ago

The more electronic "stuffs" the greater the chance of an issue with it. What engines are you referring to in particular? Any brand in mind? Some manufacturers have been making diesels for a long time despite the emergence of common rail I'd suspect they would have most of this resolved now unless it's planned obsolescence

to3m 13y ago
VW, Mercedes Benz and BMW are the brands I have these anecdotes for specifically. But reading on forums, it seems people have a lot of problems with modern diesel cars them generally. This is not exactly scientific, but the issue crops up at times in UK motoring and not-so-motoring press. Sample links: http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/mar/02/turbo-charged-cost-of-diesel-cars http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/mar/02/turbo-charged-co... http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2332107/Petrol-vs-diesel-cars-Drivers-warned-diesel-filter-trap.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2332107/Petr... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9407960/The-hidden-cost-of-diesel-cars.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9407960/The-hidden-... http://www.which.co.uk/news/2012/07/petrol-cars-cheaper-to-run-than-diesel-291241/ http://www.which.co.uk/news/2012/07/petrol-cars-cheaper-to-r...
- grumps 13y ago
  Thx

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

>- turbo charger (obviously spins very quickly and unlike a petrol engine it comes on from about 1500rpm so it's used a lot) What's with the turbocharger FUD in here today? BTW 1500 RPM is 1/2 or 2/3 the way to the redline on many diesels, so it's not really used more than it would be on a gasoline engine. >- diesel injectors (high precision components operating under pressure) Really simple devices in principle, can get expensive for some vehicles when the engineers have gone around the bend with new features (Mercedes Sprinter, I'm looking at you). >- diesel particulate filter (can clog and require expensive replacement if car is not regularly driven hard) No experience with them. >- random engine/ECU "thing" that nobody can figure out (who knows what the root cause of this might be) Nonsense. This is a mechanic/technician training issue. Diesel ECU's are no more complicated than for a gasoline engine. I'm really surprised to see anyone on HN play the "Dang them fancy computers is too complicated fer me." card.

fus 13y ago

dual mass flywheel: irrelevant for the US market (think older torque converter automatic; new ones have dual mass flywheel for gasoline engines too). diesel injectors: direct gasoline injectors are very similar. turbo: common in modern gasoline engines due to downsizing and direct injection. particulate filter: while I respect the following statement: "The cheapest, fastest and most reliable components are those that aren’t there." (Gordon Bell), thermal efficiency of a diesel cycle may make it worth. ECU faults: those actually help with solving problems before they are serious. Please go to qualified workshops! Computers are no longer a dark magic.

to3m 13y ago
I haven't heard great things about modern smaller-capacity direct injection turbocharged petrol engines either, though the economy figures always sound excellent. As for the problems I describe, I am merely relaying issues I have heard people complain about! If people take their car to a non-franchised garage, or do things themselves, ECU errors tend to get them going to the official garage because only they have the appropriate equipment. But this always seems to be a bit hit or miss, requiring multiple visits. People's suggestions that diesel engines are extra-reliable seem to be somewhat wide of the mark. Ye olde diesel engine of yore was simple, slow, noisy, dirty, and would run forever; thanks to modern technology, that all seems to have changed...
- bradleyland 13y ago
  The data doesn't support many of your views. Specifically, the claim that modern engines are somehow less reliable than the "good old days". I know you're only reporting anecdotes from people you'd consider to have a good view on the matter, but you have to keep in mind the biases involved with those views. A mechanic sees nothing but broken cars all day long. Their views are going to be skewed by their experience. Those views are not reflective of the much greater population of vehicles that experience no problems at all. The reality is that cars have never been more reliable: http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/02/when-it-comes-to-new-vehicles-todays-models-are-cheaper-and-more-reliable-than-ever-before/ http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/02/when-it-comes-to-new-vehicl... > “The long-term dependability of three-year-old models has improved year-over-year, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2013 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study. > “In 2013, overall vehicle dependability averages 126 PP100–a five percent improvement from the 2012 average of 132 PP100–and is the lowest problem count since the inception of the study in 1989.” Simplicity makes engines easier to work on for the layman, but it doesn't necessarily make them more reliable. I'm a total gear head. My love affair with cars started really early. At 3, I figured out how to use a screw driver by taking the tail lights off my dad's VW Beetle. At age 7, I helped my dad tear a VW Beetle's 4-cylinder boxer engine down to the case halves, then put it back together. I was infatuated with the process and the understanding that came with every part we removed and reassembled. I often wonder whether my father and I could have accomplished the same with (just an example) the new Ford Ecoboost 1.0L 3-cylinder, but I recognize that giving up that simplicity has resulted in an overall improvement in reliability and quality for the vast majority of drivers.