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New PRISM slides say the program allows NSA to eavesdrop on live conversations
- PavlovsCat 13y agoThat's the one I have no problems with. Whenever I rant on the phone about politics, I hope someone of those I actually mean by that, instead of just a friend who did me no harm, is listening to it. The same goes for any other medium (as phone conversations don't seem to be included in this) Well, let's say I would have no problems with it, if I wouldn't worry about the chilling effects it would have on others.
- Vivtek 13y agoThe politicians themselves aren't listening - and by being a surveillance target, you've already been othered to the point that your viewpoint will simply be taken as a sign you're untrustworthy and a dangerous element. It would be nice if the politicians were required to hear complaints, but that only works if you're rich enough to make a difference in the Game.
- PavlovsCat 13y agoOh, I don't think it would change anything, I guess people deep into it are briefed on more arguments than I could ever dream of. They're probably perfectly aware of and okay with what they're doing, too. I still find this is one of the rare cases where narcissism actually is helpful, because I am not intimidated in the least by the idea of being spied on. I'm like fuck yeah: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2660 http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2660 Being caught spying on others = super embarrassing, being spied on = hilarious. But then again, I never had anything used against me, I would sing a different tune real quick in that case. So I don't mean to belittle it in general. But if anyone can get a kick out of it while being against it and vocal about that, more power to them, right?
- Vivtek 13y agoI have to agree!
- hindsightbias 13y agoMaybe not the politicians, but their staff: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2005/05/24/terror-watch-last-minute-letter.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2005/05/24/terror-watc...
- drunkenmasta 13y agoWhat if the intent of these "leaks" was less (inform the public) and more (instil fear for the chilling effects?) It seems that every day we see stories about the govt or police getting away with this or that but the population never does anything about it. Pretty soon everyone is desensitized to it and a couple of weeks later everyone is joking about the whole thing by making memes about the NSA listening to this or that.
- tootie 13y agoIt would seem the effect is to inspire confidence that our national secutiry apparatus is doing everything it can to head off threats before they happen. It seems that 90% of the outrage is container on reddit and HN.
- runjake 13y ago> It seems that 90% of the outrage is container on reddit and HN. Then you seriously need to expand your horizons on information intake, because human rights orgs are pissed off, Ecuador and Hong Kong are pissed off. Germany, and the EU as a whole are considering a wide range of actions, and so on.
- embolism 13y agoEcuador and Hong Kong are pissed off... Ironic given that in both of these countries, warrantless wiretapping is legal and routine.
- erikvanzijst 13y agoCitation needed.
- embolism 13y ago'Citation needed' is essentially 'I can't be bothered to Google' however: Ecuador: http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/exclusive-documents-illuminate-ecuadors-spying-practices http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/exclusive-documents-illumi... China: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/27/world/asia/with-snowden-gone-hong-kong-focuses-on-us-surveillance.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/27/world/asia/with-snowden-go... "Security experts and democracy proponents say that mainland China’s domestic surveillance operations in Hong Kong are far more extensive than the American effort. But those operations have largely disappeared from public discussion as attention has focused on the many details released by Mr. Snowden."
- hartator 13y agoDoes someone keep the raw materials somewhere (the slides and others non-article stuffs) a la wikileaks?
- mtgx 13y agoI think both the Guardian and Washington Post have them. Greenwald said before he had thousands of pages he wanted to analyze before posting more. It's better to do it this way, than post all in bulk. The latest WP article already seemed a bit overwhelming.
- perlpimp 13y agoThis way laying it out step by step federal government is covering itself in a web of incremental lies, discrediting itself every step forward. All in all looks more like a ginormous clusterfluff.
- coldcode 13y agoWait until your phone call winds up on youtube. Think it can't go that far? Imagine an NSA contractor or employee with a gambling problem who needs cash. Your data is now their ticket out of trouble.
- bilbo0s 13y ago"...Your data is now their ticket out of trouble..." And their ticket into prison.
- noir_lord 13y agoIndeed because addicts never make poor or irrational over the long-term decisions.
- mpyne 13y ago> Imagine an NSA contractor or employee with a gambling problem who needs cash. Your data is now their ticket out of trouble. Even today there are NSA analysts who have tried to lookup their ex-wives, and been caught and terminated. And that's just leaving it to NSA's own accountability measures, imagine what we could do if we actually added real oversight!
- jasonjei 13y agoA dumb analyst could inside trade large amounts by eavesdropping on privileged conversations with a corporation and its public auditor (and eventually be caught for the size of transactions). A sophisticated NSA analyst could make many trades with inside information and avoid raising alarm by making off-the-radar trades.
- jsz0 13y agoI doubt the NSA would build such a sophisticated system without layers of security and extensive audit trails to prevent misuse. If not only because misuse of the system would be a disaster for the NSA and potentially be a bigger national security problem than what the system is designed to prevent in the first place.
- yk 13y agoI think this does clean up some of the language of Googles prism statement. [1] First, we have not joined any program that would give the U.S. government—or any other government—direct access to our servers. Indeed, the U.S. government does not have direct access or a “back door” to the information stored in our data centers. We had not heard of a program called PRISM until yesterday. So they did not hear of the NSA codename for FBI operated equipment. ( And note that they do not deny wiretapping, just 'direct access' and 'back door.') Second, we provide user data to governments only in accordance with the law. [...] Press reports that suggest that Google is providing open-ended access to our users’ data are false, period. That seems to indicate that here Google defines 'provide user data' as a specific database access. Which seems to be reinforced by Until this week’s reports, we had never heard of the broad type of order that Verizon received—an order that appears to have required them to hand over millions of users’ call records. Note they talk about records, not about live interception. ( And the order against Verizon seems than to indicate that Verizon did not participate in live wire tapping.) IMHO, this points in the direction, that there is FBI equipment in the Google datacenters. This equipment is tapping into the network connections and pipes them to the NSA. So the Guardians allegations [2] that "Collection directly from the servers of these US service providers: Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube, Apple." means that there is nothing between the servers and the wiretapping equipment. While the companies take the view, that only a account on a database server constitutes 'direct access.' [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5841228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5841228 [2]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/google-facebook-prism-surveillance-program http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/google-facebook-...
- mpyne 13y ago> means that there is nothing between the servers and the wiretapping equipment. There can easily still be no wiretapping equipment upstream of the servers; the companies are already copying the data directly to the collection equipment anyways, so that can be a parallel path. I'm not sure a place like Google or Facebook would ever choose to participate in something like this if their whole business were one misconfigured serial-path wiretap server away from being completely down. I believe the NYT had mentioned a couple of days after the story broke that 'real-time' collection was possible. Even that is easy technically, you just send a copy of that instant message or video frame to the FBI collection server as it goes out.
- comrade1 13y agoJust paid for two silent circle accounts today. My wife and I live overseas and have had contacts through our work with people that would put us on the actively monitored list. We have our own mail server and occasionally use PGP when needed, but the biggest hole in our security was Skype (which we knew was insecure) and iMessage (which surprised me to see on the slides because I thought it was point to point encryption - maybe they encrypt with a second apple private key)
- kahirsch 13y agoThe FBI's Data Intercept Technology Unit is a group of people. See, e.g., this memo.[1] Does the Washington Post have some other information that the FBI's "interception unit" is technology on the premises of the private companies? [1]https://www.eff.org/files/FBI_CIPAV-08-p9.pdf https://www.eff.org/files/FBI_CIPAV-08-p9.pdf
- kristopolous 13y agoThe only thing I do on the phone now is yell into it "fuck communism" and hang up.
- pasbesoin 13y agoThis sounds like CALEA, to me. Inasmuch, it doesn't surprise me, even if it doesn't entirely please me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_Law_Enforcement_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_... The questions I have are whether they are indeed doing it wholesale, e.g. widespread "phrase monitoring" and whether they are archiving (particularly, wholesale) the content [1] without a target/content specific search warrant in place. P.S. Also, whether they are doing it to political and/or economic ends. -- [1] We already know about the disposition of the so-called "metadata".
- tzs 13y agoThe slides do not say that. They only show real time monitoring of chat login/logout and email send/receive. The content only appears to be accessible to the analyst through the paths on the right side of the slides, which are for accessing stored data, not live data.
- kimlelly 13y agoThere is something we all have to do now: Never give 1 cent to these companies, again. Our only vote with them is our dollars.
- teeja 13y agoBe sure to make a direct reference to the boys listening at some point in each call so that they can feel good that they're not being ignored. Remember, one of the most important aspects of networking is about establishing a warm relationship. Right, boys?
- babesh 13y agoSnowden didn't 'make up' these slides. These are government slides. I would trust them over what the government is telling you now if only because the government decided to outright tell you nothing prior to Snowden revealing this information. Whenever you want to know the truth, just go to original sources instead of someone's 'interpretation' of it.
- ChikkaChiChi 13y agoIf you are looking for a job, simply type into any comment field on the Internet "HEY NSA I WANT A JOB" and someone will contact you shortly.