8 ms·

Secret Documents: NSA monitored 500 million connections in Germany

313 points by susi22 13y ago

susi22 13y ago
Original (this is on the front page of Spiegel today): http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-ueberwacht-500-millionen-verbindungen-in-deutschland-a-908517.html http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-ueberwacht-50... This was also posted yesterday (was on yesterday's front page of Spiegel): http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-hat-wanzen-in-eu-gebaeuden-installiert-a-908515.html http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-hat-wanzen-in... Article says that the NSA used bugs to spy on EU offices. Both articles, the comments of SPON (SPiegel ONline): Germans are pissed (We take privacy serious [1]). They're expecting the EU and chancellor Merkel to do something or she's going to have a really tough time being re-elected in the fall. Thers is way more comments on this article than many other front page articles. From experience they usually accumulate around 50-100 comments. This article has more than 650 as of now. People are definitely not amused. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View_privacy_concerns#Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View_privacy_conc...
- NonEUCitizen 13y ago
  Has there been polling as to whether support for German Pirate Party has increased?
  - kybernetyk 13y ago
    Probably not because our Pirate Party is only known for drama and the media portrays them as an disorganized bunch of kids who fight over internal power. Not that the media would be particularly wrong with this. When the party was founded I had some hopes ... now I have given up on them.
    - alan_cx 13y ago
      That reads like you have simply bought in to the media smearing. Sound familiar? See here in the UK, our media represent the whole of the EU like that. Don't give up, get involved.
      - arrrg 13y ago
        No, the pirate party in Germany is a fucking mess. Unelectable. (This opinion is based on reading the parties’ own writing and discussions, not on anything the media wrote.)
        zxcdw 13y ago
        A foreginer here. Would you like to elaborate why they seem unelectable?
        JulienSchmidt 13y ago
        They are unable to settle on a real party manifesto. Also they have problems to organize themselves. Even worse, they regularly contradict each other in public. (My personal view)
        vidarh 13y ago
        It's not so strange, because the core issues of the pirate parties are orthogonal to the classical left-right spectrum. They're trying to form a party out of a fraction of a full platform, with the result that they will either need to find a way to agree to disagree about large swathes of politics, or they will drive away large parts of their potential supporters.
      - kybernetyk 13y ago
        > That reads like you have simply bought in to the media smearing. Sound familiar? I wish it was just that. But you don't need the media to get the full drama experience. Their twitter flame wars are famous and the fall-out from certain actions (like devastating a congress centre and blowing up the bill to over 20k eur where initially 1700 eur were planned as expenses) can be read in their official wikis. I was a member in the SPD party (some of the bigger German parties) some years ago and quit shortly after becoming a member because it was all about internal power struggles - even with a local 'branch' in a 30k pop town. I decided politics wasn't for me. I had better things to do than wasting them on bullshit. Then after I got invited by a friend to come along to one of their meetings (for a 250k pop city) I decided to give politics a second chance. And I swear - it was the same like what I had experienced before with the SPD. Only there were significantly more mobile computing devices around. It was 90% about administration (who and how should do what and why that someone was a bad choice mixed in with some feminism/sexism debate) and the real issues (data retention, privacy, etc) weren't even discussed. In politics I think there are many people who do care about the core issues - but there are far too many egomaniac assholes around destroying every constructive discussion with their bullshit. And after what I've seen I don't believe that the pirate party is immune to that.
  - aluhut 13y ago
    They don't get the media attention (if they are doing something at all). My biggest fear is that the Liberals (FDP) gain votes through this...
    - JulienSchmidt 13y ago
      Why would the FDP profit from this? AFAIK they never positioned themselves in favor of privacy. I think the green party (Bündnis 90 / Die Grüne) will profit considerably more from this. They are know promoters of privacy and personal rights. "Die Linke" could also profit from this.
      - bayesianhorse 13y ago
        The liberals are very vocal about privacy and interfering of the state in the people's affairs. They just don't do a very good job making people aware of these positions...
        Semaphor 13y ago
        Or fighting for those positions.
        cygx 13y ago
        Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger has been pretty consistent, though. If it weren't for their neo-liberal/laissez-faire approach to economics, I'd consider voting for them...
        Semaphor 13y ago
        SLS usually does. But to me it always seems like she is rather alone in her party. And even she had some slip ups. If the FDP were a liberal party they'd never ally with the CDU as they are probably the most anti-liberal party we have.
      - aluhut 13y ago
  - weinzierl 13y ago
    Here you go http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm. (Click on the headings for results of previous weeks for a specific pollster.) Piraten are fairly stable around 3%. I think these polling results are not very meaningful in regard to the Pirate party. At the last election only one pollster saw them at 1% all the others at NA [1]. In the end they won 2.0 %. Pollsters still rely primarily on land line telephone interviews, and Pirate voters are therefore heavily underrepresented. Of course pollster know that and try to compensate for this effect but as long as they don't change the sampling method the error for the Pirates will be large. Peter Norvig's FAQ about the U.S. Presidential Election [2] has some excellent explanations of these effects. [1] http://www.bundestagswahl-2009.de/wahlumfragen/ http://www.bundestagswahl-2009.de/wahlumfragen/ [2] http://norvig.com/election-faq-2012.html http://norvig.com/election-faq-2012.html
- corin_ 13y ago
  Isn't Der Spiegel a weekly release? Or when you say "front page" do you mean "of their website"?
  - aluhut 13y ago
    He means both: http://www.spiegel.de/ http://www.spiegel.de/ and http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/titel/SP/2013/27/300/titel.jpg http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/titel/SP/2013/27/300/titel.j...
    - corin_ 13y ago
      That magazine cover is tomorrow's so that makes sense, but the way he worded it suggests that two days running it was on the "front page". And I think that using "on their front page" when talking about the website of a magazine is misleading, in part simply because it suggests magazine not website, and in part because being on the front page of their website really means absolutely nothing when it comes to importance - or at least, it means no more than saying "Spiegel wrote a story about it". The front page of their website is just the hub where they link off content as and when it gets published, both important and less important items.
      - Schlaefer 13y ago
        The Spiegel homepage is hugely popular in Germany. Look at the table on the bottom [1]. Note that the data is a little bit older and Bild is yellow press and recently introduced a pay wall. If a topic is prominent on the Spiegel homepage mainstream Germany will talk about it. [1] http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dwdl.de%2Fzahlenzentrale%2F35136%2Ffocus_online_setzt_sich_im_verfolgerfeld_etwas_ab%2F http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=ht...
        corin_ 13y ago
        I get that it's popular, but still.. maybe it's just a cultural difference, I don't think in the UK we would specify website (e.g. "it's on the front page of The Guardian's website"), and even then I don't think we'd refer to the front page of a newspaper/magazine's website as a big deal, we'd maybe specifically highlight how prominent on the front page it is. I mean, on Spiegel.de right now, sure the NSA story is at the top, but other items that could be described as being "on the front page" include BBC Nature: The man who lives with the grizzlies, F1: Hulkenberg Sauber team threatens to bankrupt and Jennifer Lopez in Turkmenistan, to pick out a few.
- cabalamat 13y ago
  > Germans are pissed (We take privacy serious [1]). They're expecting the EU and chancellor Merkel to do something or she's going to have a really tough time being re-elected in the fall. How is this affecting the Pirates' poll ratings? If they hold the balance of power in the Bundestag, it's likely the next German government would have to do something.
  - stesch 13y ago
    Piratenpartei now is at 3% instead of 2%. :-/ (You need 5% to enter the Bundestag.)
    - cabalamat 13y ago
      60% there then.
  - aw3c2 13y ago
    The Pirate party in Germany has become such a sad display of juvenile trolling, aggressive genderism and political incompetence that I doubt their numbers will increase.
    - mars 13y ago
      +1. unfortunately the german pirate party is badly organized, suffers from having no real leadership and thus they don't have a clear road (nor program). i'm gonna vote for them anyhow - just because it's better having them in the bundestag than not.
    - Zirro 13y ago
      I can't say I know very much about the German Pirate Party, but how did "aggressive genderism" end up becoming associated with them? Are they trying to focus on questions outside Internet-related ones and made a blunder?
      - dsl 13y ago
        The same problems as every other group of (essentially) anarchists that try to organize. It might as well be called the 4chan party.
weinzierl 13y ago
"Germany is similarly strong monitored such as China, Iraq or Saudi Arabia"
- deleted 13y ago
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- mtgx 13y ago
  You could see that from the previously leaked slide, too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-in...
- flexie 13y ago
  There could be many different explanations for that: 1: US foreign intelligence is incompetent. Viewing Germany or France as a military threat to America in 2013 is just nonsense. 2: The US uses its foreign intelligence to gain competitive advantages in businesses. I can't help wondering what kind of information flows the other way, i.e. from US government to US businesses, now that so many US companies have readily granted access to user data to the US government. 3: The US targets Germany and other European countries because it's easy to spy on us. More American government agents know German or French than Arab or Chinese, and a bigger portion of Europeans have internet connection and we host more data in the Cloud than the Chinese or Iraqi population, especially we host more with the American companies that NSA has direct access to.
  - weinzierl 13y ago
    My bet is mostly 2 and I have a 4. 4: Germany has more internet traffic than other european countries and therefore the absolute number of monitored connections is higher in Germany than in the other countries. I don't have hard numbers to back up 4., but - Frankfurt DECIX overtook Amsterdam as the largest exchange - Internet Census 2012 [1], Germany lights up like a Christmas tree, you can almost see the German borders - Broadband coverage is fairly good [2] [1] http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/images.html http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/images.html [2] http://point-topic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Studyonbroadbandcoverage-1.pdf http://point-topic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Studyonbro...
weinzierl 13y ago
"A confidential classification shows that the NSA considered the Federal Republic does as a partner, but also as an attack target. Thus, Germany is one of the so-called third-class partners. Specifically excluded from espionage attacks are Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand, which are performed as a second category. "We can attack the signals of most foreign partner third class - and to do so," it said in a presentation."
- middus 13y ago
  Here's a better translation of a passage that made me particularly irate: "On Christmas Eve 2012, the NSA eavesdropped and stored about 13 million telephone connections" Merry Christmas, German friends.
- 3825 13y ago
  I find it interesting that the set of five countries: UK, US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. I'd like to know how the US came up with this list. Is it because we speak the same language? Is it because we share the same heritage? Where does this leave France? What did France do to us that we need to spy on them? To gain some perspective here, imagine this scenario where Germany was in the US' position and it makes a list of countries: Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg, and Switzerland as nations to exclude from espionage attacks. Imagine that we are in a military alliance with them (NATO) and Germany has military bases spread across the US. Would that not make you feel uneasy to suddenly learn one day that not only you are a possible military target but also that you are an active espionage target? How can you trust someone who does not trust you and feels the need to spy on everything you do and every word you say?
  - inaudible 13y ago
    Judging by the revealed alliance with GCHQ in UK, and the long term history of joined espionage programs here in Australia, there is a good chance that top tier list are already in strategic negotiations with the US and the NSA.
  - khuey 13y ago
    Probably because those are the five participating nations in the UKUSA agreement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement
mathieuh 13y ago
Yes it's terrible, but I'm amazed that people are surprised at all this NSA stuff. Look at America's history, it's been a global hegemon since the 1940s. I don't think they're likely to stop any time soon.
- mtgx 13y ago
  Maybe not "surprised", but still outraged. Before even if you were outraged about this, there was no one to listen to you, because it would still sound a bit "conspiracy-theory-like". Plus, I'm not sure if everyone actually thought their e-mail is being collected and could be easily accessed by NSA and others. Maybe they would suspect NSA could do that, but to the bad guys. Not to them. Isn't that what they keep saying in public now? That they only look at the "bad guys' data"? So the outrage, and even surprise to some degree, is very warranted.
- ExpiredLink 13y ago
  > I'm amazed that people are surprised at all this NSA stuff Me too. People who could put two and two together knew what Snowden 'leaked' to the mass media.
  - tomjen3 13y ago
    Most people cannot put two and two together.
jgreen10 13y ago
What have they ever done to deserve that? </sarcasm>
- sts2055 13y ago
  So the US has always been super buddies with Japan? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-in...
- alan_cx 13y ago
  What does Germany have to hide......? In fact, hello US gov, what do you have to hide?
- lispm 13y ago
  Here are some reasons: * Germany was at the frontline in the cold war. So Germany is traditionally both a target and a host of US spy activities. * Germany hosts important US military facilities: US nuclear bombs, US central commands for Europe and Africa, military airports, military logistics, military hospitals. * Germany was reunited with a communist part, which was under the influence of the soviet union. Thus it hosts a lot of former communists, former Stasi (East German State security, ...), a lot of KGB contacts, etc. * from Germany it is easy to spy on East Europe * Germany has a successful industry which is a great target. Germany has about 1500 so-called hidden champions, SMEs active in (often high-tech) niche markets and dominating them. Germany has SAP, one of the largest software companies world-wide, whose software is used at the core of the business of most of the large companies world-wide. * Germany is a part of the EU, something which the US likes to understand and influence * Germany has no direct border controls to neighbor countries, so there is a lot of illegal immigration to Germany, which makes it interesting for the US * Germany is very active in high-tech and especially the Internet. Germany hosts one of the most important Internet exchange nodes. * Germany has deep trade and diplomatic relations with Russia and China. * Germany hosts some international relevant institutions, above all the European Central Bank. * Germany has a relatively large military industry and exports military goods (tanks, airplanes, submarines, ships, satellites, ...). * Germany has active left and green parties. Suspicious! Plus Germany lost WWII and had to give up rights, some of them the US still has - so it may be still legal for the US to spy in Germany.
julianpye 13y ago
Don't forget that the 9/11 attacks were planned out of Hamburg and that some of the WTC bombers of 1993 were living and captured in Germany.
- glitchdout 13y ago
  How is that even relevant? How does that justify the interception of 500 million messages per month?
  - julianpye 13y ago
    It simply shows that there had been ongoing planning activities by terrorist cells in Germany.
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      That comment simply shows that while the lights may be on, there is nobody home.
      - julianpye 13y ago
        Why the downvote? The cell planned and coordinated with AQ while they were living in Germany and the BND did not detect their activities. Since then the US intensified their activities in Germany. I am not saying this is fair for Germany or not, but it's simply a logical conclusion from the US point of view in light of activities such as the patriot act and the creation of the DoHS.
        PavlovsCat 13y ago
        I did not downvote you, only verbally if you will. But I will elaborate, to me it sounded as if you were saying that the NSA is only ever going after terrorists [whatever that even means, considering activists also seem to fall under that umbrella], so no matter what they do, it must be required to fight terrorism. By definition. [that's a great way to create fiscal black holes, but rather shoddy reasoning] So why was COINTELPRO not required to keep the US from being destroyed by, uhh, black supremacists? The CIA did it, it's concerned with "criminals", that's in the name -- good enough, no? The cell planned and coordinated with AQ while they were living in Germany and the BND did not detect their activities. Yes, and as I said elsewhere, I can totally see why they wouldn't leave anything serious that could possibly be a threat to the US to German intelligence. But I still don't see how 500 million messages per month could figure into this, unless they are spying on everyone who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who visited a jihadist website...? If guessing how much it costs to wash all windows in Seattle is a normal job interview question for some, maybe they can help? I wouldn't even know where to begin, myself. But 500 million seems like a lot no matter how I look at it. Since then the US intensified their activities in Germany. Oh, so they "intensified it", and that explains everything? 500 million messages, or 500 billion, who cares? To me that sounds like chocolate rations are up 5%. And I don't mean you, either: without anything to go by, no solid ground to stand on, both of us are pretty much guessing. You inherently trust, I inherently distrust, but I can't see a way for us to find out who the NSA is spying on and why. But even just the acceptance of that annoys me :/
chj 13y ago
Seriously, what has Germany done to harm America after the war?
- lispm 13y ago
  They have not bought Monsanto as they were supposed to?
- Vivtek 13y ago
  They're making money that could be made by Americans?
- wintersFright 13y ago
  They are a strong component of the European Union which is designed to act as a large trading block and compete with the US. The Euro is a competitor to the US Dollar. As the Euro displaces the USD throug out Europe, the US loses more of its "exorbitant Privilege" in being able to print money and export the inflation to the rest of the world.
- Create 13y ago
  It is economical harm, which impedes and on the long run destroys hegemony. Recent examples: Opel attempting to buy itself out of GM (saved by Gov't bailout), Creditor Deutche Bank National Trustcompany (housing debt), most SV chip machinery comes from DE such as Zeiss etc. Overall, the single biggest problem is the € and the success of western Europe (it seems one might take Bruxelles bureaucrats for terrorists). Most of the decisions for the € is taken from Frankfurt given it is almost a refitted DM, and which needs to be countered by all means (ie. proxies such as Greece).
- FrojoS 13y ago
  "Its the economy stupid." Industrial espionage. Innovation that can be copied.
vidarh 13y ago
That headline is blatant editorialising and whether or not you consider what the NSA is apparently doing as an indication they view Germany as an enemy, the text of the article does not in any way support that the NSA itself sees it that way. (in case it is modified, this is the headline as of writing: "NSA: Germany considered an enemy. Intercepting 500mill messages per month")
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  I agree. Germany was more of a "target", and considering involvements of the German muslim minority in 9/11 this isn't very surprising either. Still I really don't like what the NSA is doing to us...
  - deleted 13y ago
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    - deleted 13y ago
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    - arethuza 13y ago
      Probably a reference to the Hamburg Cell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell NB From what I can see most of the members of this group were not German nationals
      - bayesianhorse 13y ago
        Yes, but they were living in Germany, and we do have a small population of salafists, among which potential terrorists can hide. A lot of these salafists are indeed German nationals, some by birth and ethnicity. I'm also stressing that I don't find the surveillance "surprising", while I don't condone it in any way.
    - accountoftheday 13y ago
      Some of the attackers previously lived as engineering students in Germany.
ck2 13y ago
War on terror my a∗∗ It's a "spy-on-everyone including our own citizens under whatever excuse we can get away with".
- deleted 13y ago
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spitx 13y ago
This has got to be 1) a decoy outfit whose entire purpose is meant to deflect criticism from China and Russia - who are in all likelihood the biggest receiving parties of American intelligence attention - which often complain about America's far-flung surveillance activities. 2) a conventional operation, by the NSA, involving "listening station" activities for the entire European region ( like at RAF Menwith Hill in the UK )that listens to chatter and helps thwart terrorist threats in conjunction with mainland intelligence agencies. 3) some other unknown listening operation that keeps tabs on primarily homegrown threats from militant Islamists and converts to Islam, in Germany. a. CIA is said to have recruited Danish agent (and convert to Islam) Morten Storm to find a bride for radical anti-American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki. Croatian Muslim convert 'Aminah' - born Irena Horek - was recruited on Facebook by Morten Storm who claims he worked with the CIA to infiltrate al-Qaeda and became a matchmaker to the terrorists. ) http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16B3C4D2000005DC-792_634x351.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16... http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16B3C730000005DC-13_634x314.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16... http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16B3C4E6000005DC-801_634x399.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16... b. The members of the Hamburg cell were the key operatives in the 9/11 attacks. Around 4.3 million Muslims live in Germany, one of the larger compositions in Europe (5.4% of the population) or in any Western nation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Germany Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50137988n http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50137988n http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/world/middleeast/danes-wild-tale-of-ruse-to-find-anwar-al-awlaki.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/world/middleeast/danes-wil... Edit: Formatting
syjer 13y ago
So I guess us, the innocent people, are collateral damage in the interception business? These terrorist cell must be quite chatty if they intercept 500M messages per month.
norswap 13y ago
Interesting that Germany seems to be the only place where there is real outrage over the situation. Go Germany.
- dcc1 13y ago
  Germans still have a recent experience of a surveillance+police state
susi22 13y ago
Little update at: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/steinbrueck-fordert-von-merkel-aufklaerung-ueber-nsa-ueberwachung-a-908611.html http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/steinbrueck-forder... Politicians of all major parties are pressuring chancellor Merkel to react. One party is proposing to question the American ambassador.
lttlrck 13y ago
Its the government equivalent of Angies List/beenverified.com.
mtgx 13y ago
This would be a good opportunity for Germany/EU to give Snowden asylum, if only to show US that they screwed up so much, it's EU itself, their ally, who will give him asylum.
- Keyframe 13y ago
  Like that would ever happen. Especially in a country where US runs the shop since the end of WW2.
  - LinaLauneBaer 13y ago
    Maybe I am misunderstanding you but I disagree that the US runs Germany. Or what do you mean by saying "the US runs the shop since the end of WW2"? Yes, the US has stationed troops and nuclear missels in Germany but this is far from "running the shop".
    - Keyframe 13y ago
      I seriously doubt that even today Germany has a final say without US weighing in first in anything related to their military, intelligence, foreign policies. France on the other hand plays hard ball, I'd like to see something like that escalate in France.
      - 9h1d9j809s 13y ago
        I think Germany is fairly autonomous. However the conservative parties are basically US fanboys.
      - weinzierl 13y ago
        If you'd ask me a week ago who the U.S. is spying on the most in the EU, I'd told you without hesitation: France. One can only wonder...
        cygx 13y ago
        Basically, the US never stopped spying on Germany after WW2. I'd guess they kept upgrading their hardware during the cold war, and apparently never stopped after its end. Also, the occupation authorities were instrumental in establishing the German intelligence service from the get-go, liberally making use of the existing NS personnel (Wikipedia[1] lists Reinhard Gehlen, Klaus Barbie, Alois Brunner, Wilhelm Krichbaum, Franz Rademacher, Walther Rauff, Konrad Fiebig, Franz Alfred Six as prominent examples). [1] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesnachrichtendienst#Geschichte http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesnachrichtendienst#Geschic...
beedogs 13y ago
And this is how the US treats its "allies". I can see this having far-reaching consequences in international relations, all of them negative, for America.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  Except that most of these nations are willing participants in the spying programs. They may make noises to try and pacify the electorate, but I doubt the governments are interested in changing much.
  - abraininavat 13y ago
    People keep saying this. A democratic nation derives its power from its people. These nations are not willing participants in the spying program. What you mean is that their elected representatives have sold out their country.
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      >What you mean is that their elected representatives have sold out their country. Yes.
deleted 13y ago
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flyinglizard 13y ago
In light of this, EU countries should have come forward and offer an asylum for Snowden. I'm sure there could be some legal way to do so, given the hostility of US intelligence. Not that I'm not one bit surprised by any of this. Every government with the technical capability to spy, does so. On allies, on enemies and on civilians; everyone is a fair target. NSA was just caught red handed.
jakub_g 13y ago
BTW if someone wants non-google-translated reads, Spiegel has international version in English. Some links: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nsa-spied-on-european-union-offices-a-908590.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nsa-spied-on-euro... http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/jakob-augstein-data-spying-programs-threaten-german-security-a-907577.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/jakob-augstein-d... http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-furious-at-nsa-spying-in-brussels-and-germany-a-908614.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-furi...
popee 13y ago
It's all clear now, prism is German project. There are also theories that NSA could potentially be German project also. Nazis.
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froh42 13y ago
I am so pissed about this. Born in 1969 I've been growing up in a Germany where we viewed the U.S. of America as a friend. An example in freedom and democracy where we have had failings of our own. Now it turns out our friend betrayed us. It views us as the enemy. Everything imagined as a paranoid bad joke is true. But the worst of all: In the USA there is no outcry. The people don't even care about this. Thus: We are not seen as friends. Greatly done, USA. From now on you are alone. Fuck yourself.
e3pi 13y ago
ex-NSA off-grid Edward(!) `Brill' Lyle, (aka `Harry `The Call' Caul' The Conversation (film) 1972 (~prequel)) in Enemy of the State (film) 1998 (~sequel), teaches us a way to get reins on NSA's wild horses is to bug(1) and wiretap Clapper's and Kieth Alexander's homes. In addition to heroic(martyr?) whistleblowers, the world needs angry and experienced curmudgeon tradecraft operatives: (1) "...will find them and have the NSA start an investigation. Lyle also deposits $140,000 into _______'s bank account to make it appear that he is taking bribes.
deleted 13y ago
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313 points by susi22 13y ago

Original (this is on the front page of Spiegel today): http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-ueberwacht-500-millionen-verbindungen-in-deutschland-a-908517.html http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-ueberwacht-50... This was also posted yesterday (was on yesterday's front page of Spiegel): http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-hat-wanzen-in-eu-gebaeuden-installiert-a-908515.html http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-hat-wanzen-in... Article says that the NSA used bugs to spy on EU offices. Both articles, the comments of SPON (SPiegel ONline): Germans are pissed (We take privacy serious [1]). They're expecting the EU and chancellor Merkel to do something or she's going to have a really tough time being re-elected in the fall. Thers is way more comments on this article than many other front page articles. From experience they usually accumulate around 50-100 comments. This article has more than 650 as of now. People are definitely not amused. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View_privacy_concerns#Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View_privacy_conc...

NonEUCitizen 13y ago
Has there been polling as to whether support for German Pirate Party has increased?
- kybernetyk 13y ago
  Probably not because our Pirate Party is only known for drama and the media portrays them as an disorganized bunch of kids who fight over internal power. Not that the media would be particularly wrong with this. When the party was founded I had some hopes ... now I have given up on them.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    That reads like you have simply bought in to the media smearing. Sound familiar? See here in the UK, our media represent the whole of the EU like that. Don't give up, get involved.
    - arrrg 13y ago
      No, the pirate party in Germany is a fucking mess. Unelectable. (This opinion is based on reading the parties’ own writing and discussions, not on anything the media wrote.)
      - zxcdw 13y ago
        A foreginer here. Would you like to elaborate why they seem unelectable?
        JulienSchmidt 13y ago
        They are unable to settle on a real party manifesto. Also they have problems to organize themselves. Even worse, they regularly contradict each other in public. (My personal view)
        vidarh 13y ago
        It's not so strange, because the core issues of the pirate parties are orthogonal to the classical left-right spectrum. They're trying to form a party out of a fraction of a full platform, with the result that they will either need to find a way to agree to disagree about large swathes of politics, or they will drive away large parts of their potential supporters.
    - kybernetyk 13y ago
      > That reads like you have simply bought in to the media smearing. Sound familiar? I wish it was just that. But you don't need the media to get the full drama experience. Their twitter flame wars are famous and the fall-out from certain actions (like devastating a congress centre and blowing up the bill to over 20k eur where initially 1700 eur were planned as expenses) can be read in their official wikis. I was a member in the SPD party (some of the bigger German parties) some years ago and quit shortly after becoming a member because it was all about internal power struggles - even with a local 'branch' in a 30k pop town. I decided politics wasn't for me. I had better things to do than wasting them on bullshit. Then after I got invited by a friend to come along to one of their meetings (for a 250k pop city) I decided to give politics a second chance. And I swear - it was the same like what I had experienced before with the SPD. Only there were significantly more mobile computing devices around. It was 90% about administration (who and how should do what and why that someone was a bad choice mixed in with some feminism/sexism debate) and the real issues (data retention, privacy, etc) weren't even discussed. In politics I think there are many people who do care about the core issues - but there are far too many egomaniac assholes around destroying every constructive discussion with their bullshit. And after what I've seen I don't believe that the pirate party is immune to that.
- aluhut 13y ago
  They don't get the media attention (if they are doing something at all). My biggest fear is that the Liberals (FDP) gain votes through this...
  - JulienSchmidt 13y ago
    Why would the FDP profit from this? AFAIK they never positioned themselves in favor of privacy. I think the green party (Bündnis 90 / Die Grüne) will profit considerably more from this. They are know promoters of privacy and personal rights. "Die Linke" could also profit from this.
    - bayesianhorse 13y ago
      The liberals are very vocal about privacy and interfering of the state in the people's affairs. They just don't do a very good job making people aware of these positions...
      - Semaphor 13y ago
        Or fighting for those positions.
        cygx 13y ago
        Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger has been pretty consistent, though. If it weren't for their neo-liberal/laissez-faire approach to economics, I'd consider voting for them...
        Semaphor 13y ago
        SLS usually does. But to me it always seems like she is rather alone in her party. And even she had some slip ups. If the FDP were a liberal party they'd never ally with the CDU as they are probably the most anti-liberal party we have.
    - aluhut 13y ago
- weinzierl 13y ago
  Here you go http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm. (Click on the headings for results of previous weeks for a specific pollster.) Piraten are fairly stable around 3%. I think these polling results are not very meaningful in regard to the Pirate party. At the last election only one pollster saw them at 1% all the others at NA [1]. In the end they won 2.0 %. Pollsters still rely primarily on land line telephone interviews, and Pirate voters are therefore heavily underrepresented. Of course pollster know that and try to compensate for this effect but as long as they don't change the sampling method the error for the Pirates will be large. Peter Norvig's FAQ about the U.S. Presidential Election [2] has some excellent explanations of these effects. [1] http://www.bundestagswahl-2009.de/wahlumfragen/ http://www.bundestagswahl-2009.de/wahlumfragen/ [2] http://norvig.com/election-faq-2012.html http://norvig.com/election-faq-2012.html
corin_ 13y ago
Isn't Der Spiegel a weekly release? Or when you say "front page" do you mean "of their website"?
- aluhut 13y ago
  He means both: http://www.spiegel.de/ http://www.spiegel.de/ and http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/titel/SP/2013/27/300/titel.jpg http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/titel/SP/2013/27/300/titel.j...
  - corin_ 13y ago
    That magazine cover is tomorrow's so that makes sense, but the way he worded it suggests that two days running it was on the "front page". And I think that using "on their front page" when talking about the website of a magazine is misleading, in part simply because it suggests magazine not website, and in part because being on the front page of their website really means absolutely nothing when it comes to importance - or at least, it means no more than saying "Spiegel wrote a story about it". The front page of their website is just the hub where they link off content as and when it gets published, both important and less important items.
    - Schlaefer 13y ago
      The Spiegel homepage is hugely popular in Germany. Look at the table on the bottom [1]. Note that the data is a little bit older and Bild is yellow press and recently introduced a pay wall. If a topic is prominent on the Spiegel homepage mainstream Germany will talk about it. [1] http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dwdl.de%2Fzahlenzentrale%2F35136%2Ffocus_online_setzt_sich_im_verfolgerfeld_etwas_ab%2F http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=ht...
      - corin_ 13y ago
        I get that it's popular, but still.. maybe it's just a cultural difference, I don't think in the UK we would specify website (e.g. "it's on the front page of The Guardian's website"), and even then I don't think we'd refer to the front page of a newspaper/magazine's website as a big deal, we'd maybe specifically highlight how prominent on the front page it is. I mean, on Spiegel.de right now, sure the NSA story is at the top, but other items that could be described as being "on the front page" include BBC Nature: The man who lives with the grizzlies, F1: Hulkenberg Sauber team threatens to bankrupt and Jennifer Lopez in Turkmenistan, to pick out a few.
cabalamat 13y ago
> Germans are pissed (We take privacy serious [1]). They're expecting the EU and chancellor Merkel to do something or she's going to have a really tough time being re-elected in the fall. How is this affecting the Pirates' poll ratings? If they hold the balance of power in the Bundestag, it's likely the next German government would have to do something.
- stesch 13y ago
  Piratenpartei now is at 3% instead of 2%. :-/ (You need 5% to enter the Bundestag.)
  - cabalamat 13y ago
    60% there then.
- aw3c2 13y ago
  The Pirate party in Germany has become such a sad display of juvenile trolling, aggressive genderism and political incompetence that I doubt their numbers will increase.
  - mars 13y ago
    +1. unfortunately the german pirate party is badly organized, suffers from having no real leadership and thus they don't have a clear road (nor program). i'm gonna vote for them anyhow - just because it's better having them in the bundestag than not.
  - Zirro 13y ago
    I can't say I know very much about the German Pirate Party, but how did "aggressive genderism" end up becoming associated with them? Are they trying to focus on questions outside Internet-related ones and made a blunder?
    - dsl 13y ago
      The same problems as every other group of (essentially) anarchists that try to organize. It might as well be called the 4chan party.

weinzierl 13y ago

"Germany is similarly strong monitored such as China, Iraq or Saudi Arabia"

deleted 13y ago
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mtgx 13y ago
You could see that from the previously leaked slide, too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-in...
flexie 13y ago
There could be many different explanations for that: 1: US foreign intelligence is incompetent. Viewing Germany or France as a military threat to America in 2013 is just nonsense. 2: The US uses its foreign intelligence to gain competitive advantages in businesses. I can't help wondering what kind of information flows the other way, i.e. from US government to US businesses, now that so many US companies have readily granted access to user data to the US government. 3: The US targets Germany and other European countries because it's easy to spy on us. More American government agents know German or French than Arab or Chinese, and a bigger portion of Europeans have internet connection and we host more data in the Cloud than the Chinese or Iraqi population, especially we host more with the American companies that NSA has direct access to.
- weinzierl 13y ago
  My bet is mostly 2 and I have a 4. 4: Germany has more internet traffic than other european countries and therefore the absolute number of monitored connections is higher in Germany than in the other countries. I don't have hard numbers to back up 4., but - Frankfurt DECIX overtook Amsterdam as the largest exchange - Internet Census 2012 [1], Germany lights up like a Christmas tree, you can almost see the German borders - Broadband coverage is fairly good [2] [1] http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/images.html http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/images.html [2] http://point-topic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Studyonbroadbandcoverage-1.pdf http://point-topic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Studyonbro...

weinzierl 13y ago

"A confidential classification shows that the NSA considered the Federal Republic does as a partner, but also as an attack target. Thus, Germany is one of the so-called third-class partners. Specifically excluded from espionage attacks are Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand, which are performed as a second category. "We can attack the signals of most foreign partner third class - and to do so," it said in a presentation."

middus 13y ago
Here's a better translation of a passage that made me particularly irate: "On Christmas Eve 2012, the NSA eavesdropped and stored about 13 million telephone connections" Merry Christmas, German friends.
3825 13y ago
I find it interesting that the set of five countries: UK, US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. I'd like to know how the US came up with this list. Is it because we speak the same language? Is it because we share the same heritage? Where does this leave France? What did France do to us that we need to spy on them? To gain some perspective here, imagine this scenario where Germany was in the US' position and it makes a list of countries: Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg, and Switzerland as nations to exclude from espionage attacks. Imagine that we are in a military alliance with them (NATO) and Germany has military bases spread across the US. Would that not make you feel uneasy to suddenly learn one day that not only you are a possible military target but also that you are an active espionage target? How can you trust someone who does not trust you and feels the need to spy on everything you do and every word you say?
- inaudible 13y ago
  Judging by the revealed alliance with GCHQ in UK, and the long term history of joined espionage programs here in Australia, there is a good chance that top tier list are already in strategic negotiations with the US and the NSA.
- khuey 13y ago
  Probably because those are the five participating nations in the UKUSA agreement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement

mathieuh 13y ago

Yes it's terrible, but I'm amazed that people are surprised at all this NSA stuff. Look at America's history, it's been a global hegemon since the 1940s. I don't think they're likely to stop any time soon.

mtgx 13y ago
Maybe not "surprised", but still outraged. Before even if you were outraged about this, there was no one to listen to you, because it would still sound a bit "conspiracy-theory-like". Plus, I'm not sure if everyone actually thought their e-mail is being collected and could be easily accessed by NSA and others. Maybe they would suspect NSA could do that, but to the bad guys. Not to them. Isn't that what they keep saying in public now? That they only look at the "bad guys' data"? So the outrage, and even surprise to some degree, is very warranted.
ExpiredLink 13y ago
> I'm amazed that people are surprised at all this NSA stuff Me too. People who could put two and two together knew what Snowden 'leaked' to the mass media.
- tomjen3 13y ago
  Most people cannot put two and two together.

jgreen10 13y ago

What have they ever done to deserve that? </sarcasm>

sts2055 13y ago
So the US has always been super buddies with Japan? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-informant-global-datamining http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/08/nsa-boundless-in...
alan_cx 13y ago
What does Germany have to hide......? In fact, hello US gov, what do you have to hide?
lispm 13y ago
Here are some reasons: * Germany was at the frontline in the cold war. So Germany is traditionally both a target and a host of US spy activities. * Germany hosts important US military facilities: US nuclear bombs, US central commands for Europe and Africa, military airports, military logistics, military hospitals. * Germany was reunited with a communist part, which was under the influence of the soviet union. Thus it hosts a lot of former communists, former Stasi (East German State security, ...), a lot of KGB contacts, etc. * from Germany it is easy to spy on East Europe * Germany has a successful industry which is a great target. Germany has about 1500 so-called hidden champions, SMEs active in (often high-tech) niche markets and dominating them. Germany has SAP, one of the largest software companies world-wide, whose software is used at the core of the business of most of the large companies world-wide. * Germany is a part of the EU, something which the US likes to understand and influence * Germany has no direct border controls to neighbor countries, so there is a lot of illegal immigration to Germany, which makes it interesting for the US * Germany is very active in high-tech and especially the Internet. Germany hosts one of the most important Internet exchange nodes. * Germany has deep trade and diplomatic relations with Russia and China. * Germany hosts some international relevant institutions, above all the European Central Bank. * Germany has a relatively large military industry and exports military goods (tanks, airplanes, submarines, ships, satellites, ...). * Germany has active left and green parties. Suspicious! Plus Germany lost WWII and had to give up rights, some of them the US still has - so it may be still legal for the US to spy in Germany.

julianpye 13y ago

Don't forget that the 9/11 attacks were planned out of Hamburg and that some of the WTC bombers of 1993 were living and captured in Germany.

glitchdout 13y ago
How is that even relevant? How does that justify the interception of 500 million messages per month?
- julianpye 13y ago
  It simply shows that there had been ongoing planning activities by terrorist cells in Germany.
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    That comment simply shows that while the lights may be on, there is nobody home.
    - julianpye 13y ago
      Why the downvote? The cell planned and coordinated with AQ while they were living in Germany and the BND did not detect their activities. Since then the US intensified their activities in Germany. I am not saying this is fair for Germany or not, but it's simply a logical conclusion from the US point of view in light of activities such as the patriot act and the creation of the DoHS.
      - PavlovsCat 13y ago
        I did not downvote you, only verbally if you will. But I will elaborate, to me it sounded as if you were saying that the NSA is only ever going after terrorists [whatever that even means, considering activists also seem to fall under that umbrella], so no matter what they do, it must be required to fight terrorism. By definition. [that's a great way to create fiscal black holes, but rather shoddy reasoning] So why was COINTELPRO not required to keep the US from being destroyed by, uhh, black supremacists? The CIA did it, it's concerned with "criminals", that's in the name -- good enough, no? The cell planned and coordinated with AQ while they were living in Germany and the BND did not detect their activities. Yes, and as I said elsewhere, I can totally see why they wouldn't leave anything serious that could possibly be a threat to the US to German intelligence. But I still don't see how 500 million messages per month could figure into this, unless they are spying on everyone who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who visited a jihadist website...? If guessing how much it costs to wash all windows in Seattle is a normal job interview question for some, maybe they can help? I wouldn't even know where to begin, myself. But 500 million seems like a lot no matter how I look at it. Since then the US intensified their activities in Germany. Oh, so they "intensified it", and that explains everything? 500 million messages, or 500 billion, who cares? To me that sounds like chocolate rations are up 5%. And I don't mean you, either: without anything to go by, no solid ground to stand on, both of us are pretty much guessing. You inherently trust, I inherently distrust, but I can't see a way for us to find out who the NSA is spying on and why. But even just the acceptance of that annoys me :/

chj 13y ago

Seriously, what has Germany done to harm America after the war?

lispm 13y ago
They have not bought Monsanto as they were supposed to?
Vivtek 13y ago
They're making money that could be made by Americans?
wintersFright 13y ago
They are a strong component of the European Union which is designed to act as a large trading block and compete with the US. The Euro is a competitor to the US Dollar. As the Euro displaces the USD throug out Europe, the US loses more of its "exorbitant Privilege" in being able to print money and export the inflation to the rest of the world.
Create 13y ago
It is economical harm, which impedes and on the long run destroys hegemony. Recent examples: Opel attempting to buy itself out of GM (saved by Gov't bailout), Creditor Deutche Bank National Trustcompany (housing debt), most SV chip machinery comes from DE such as Zeiss etc. Overall, the single biggest problem is the € and the success of western Europe (it seems one might take Bruxelles bureaucrats for terrorists). Most of the decisions for the € is taken from Frankfurt given it is almost a refitted DM, and which needs to be countered by all means (ie. proxies such as Greece).
FrojoS 13y ago
"Its the economy stupid." Industrial espionage. Innovation that can be copied.

vidarh 13y ago

That headline is blatant editorialising and whether or not you consider what the NSA is apparently doing as an indication they view Germany as an enemy, the text of the article does not in any way support that the NSA itself sees it that way. (in case it is modified, this is the headline as of writing: "NSA: Germany considered an enemy. Intercepting 500mill messages per month")

bayesianhorse 13y ago
I agree. Germany was more of a "target", and considering involvements of the German muslim minority in 9/11 this isn't very surprising either. Still I really don't like what the NSA is doing to us...
- deleted 13y ago
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  - arethuza 13y ago
    Probably a reference to the Hamburg Cell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell NB From what I can see most of the members of this group were not German nationals
    - bayesianhorse 13y ago
      Yes, but they were living in Germany, and we do have a small population of salafists, among which potential terrorists can hide. A lot of these salafists are indeed German nationals, some by birth and ethnicity. I'm also stressing that I don't find the surveillance "surprising", while I don't condone it in any way.
  - accountoftheday 13y ago
    Some of the attackers previously lived as engineering students in Germany.

ck2 13y ago

War on terror my a∗∗ It's a "spy-on-everyone including our own citizens under whatever excuse we can get away with".

deleted 13y ago
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spitx 13y ago

This has got to be 1) a decoy outfit whose entire purpose is meant to deflect criticism from China and Russia - who are in all likelihood the biggest receiving parties of American intelligence attention - which often complain about America's far-flung surveillance activities. 2) a conventional operation, by the NSA, involving "listening station" activities for the entire European region ( like at RAF Menwith Hill in the UK )that listens to chatter and helps thwart terrorist threats in conjunction with mainland intelligence agencies. 3) some other unknown listening operation that keeps tabs on primarily homegrown threats from militant Islamists and converts to Islam, in Germany. a. CIA is said to have recruited Danish agent (and convert to Islam) Morten Storm to find a bride for radical anti-American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki. Croatian Muslim convert 'Aminah' - born Irena Horek - was recruited on Facebook by Morten Storm who claims he worked with the CIA to infiltrate al-Qaeda and became a matchmaker to the terrorists. ) http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16B3C4D2000005DC-792_634x351.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16... http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16B3C730000005DC-13_634x314.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16... http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16B3C4E6000005DC-801_634x399.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/31/article-2255280-16... b. The members of the Hamburg cell were the key operatives in the 9/11 attacks. Around 4.3 million Muslims live in Germany, one of the larger compositions in Europe (5.4% of the population) or in any Western nation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Germany Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50137988n http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50137988n http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/world/middleeast/danes-wild-tale-of-ruse-to-find-anwar-al-awlaki.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/world/middleeast/danes-wil... Edit: Formatting

syjer 13y ago

So I guess us, the innocent people, are collateral damage in the interception business? These terrorist cell must be quite chatty if they intercept 500M messages per month.

norswap 13y ago

Interesting that Germany seems to be the only place where there is real outrage over the situation. Go Germany.

dcc1 13y ago
Germans still have a recent experience of a surveillance+police state

susi22 13y ago

Little update at: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/steinbrueck-fordert-von-merkel-aufklaerung-ueber-nsa-ueberwachung-a-908611.html http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/steinbrueck-forder... Politicians of all major parties are pressuring chancellor Merkel to react. One party is proposing to question the American ambassador.

lttlrck 13y ago

Its the government equivalent of Angies List/beenverified.com.

mtgx 13y ago

This would be a good opportunity for Germany/EU to give Snowden asylum, if only to show US that they screwed up so much, it's EU itself, their ally, who will give him asylum.

Keyframe 13y ago
Like that would ever happen. Especially in a country where US runs the shop since the end of WW2.
- LinaLauneBaer 13y ago
  Maybe I am misunderstanding you but I disagree that the US runs Germany. Or what do you mean by saying "the US runs the shop since the end of WW2"? Yes, the US has stationed troops and nuclear missels in Germany but this is far from "running the shop".
  - Keyframe 13y ago
    I seriously doubt that even today Germany has a final say without US weighing in first in anything related to their military, intelligence, foreign policies. France on the other hand plays hard ball, I'd like to see something like that escalate in France.
    - 9h1d9j809s 13y ago
      I think Germany is fairly autonomous. However the conservative parties are basically US fanboys.
    - weinzierl 13y ago
      If you'd ask me a week ago who the U.S. is spying on the most in the EU, I'd told you without hesitation: France. One can only wonder...
      - cygx 13y ago
        Basically, the US never stopped spying on Germany after WW2. I'd guess they kept upgrading their hardware during the cold war, and apparently never stopped after its end. Also, the occupation authorities were instrumental in establishing the German intelligence service from the get-go, liberally making use of the existing NS personnel (Wikipedia[1] lists Reinhard Gehlen, Klaus Barbie, Alois Brunner, Wilhelm Krichbaum, Franz Rademacher, Walther Rauff, Konrad Fiebig, Franz Alfred Six as prominent examples). [1] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesnachrichtendienst#Geschichte http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesnachrichtendienst#Geschic...

beedogs 13y ago

And this is how the US treats its "allies". I can see this having far-reaching consequences in international relations, all of them negative, for America.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
Except that most of these nations are willing participants in the spying programs. They may make noises to try and pacify the electorate, but I doubt the governments are interested in changing much.
- abraininavat 13y ago
  People keep saying this. A democratic nation derives its power from its people. These nations are not willing participants in the spying program. What you mean is that their elected representatives have sold out their country.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    >What you mean is that their elected representatives have sold out their country. Yes.

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flyinglizard 13y ago

In light of this, EU countries should have come forward and offer an asylum for Snowden. I'm sure there could be some legal way to do so, given the hostility of US intelligence. Not that I'm not one bit surprised by any of this. Every government with the technical capability to spy, does so. On allies, on enemies and on civilians; everyone is a fair target. NSA was just caught red handed.

jakub_g 13y ago

BTW if someone wants non-google-translated reads, Spiegel has international version in English. Some links: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nsa-spied-on-european-union-offices-a-908590.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nsa-spied-on-euro... http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/jakob-augstein-data-spying-programs-threaten-german-security-a-907577.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/jakob-augstein-d... http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-furious-at-nsa-spying-in-brussels-and-germany-a-908614.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-officials-furi...

popee 13y ago

It's all clear now, prism is German project. There are also theories that NSA could potentially be German project also. Nazis.

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froh42 13y ago

I am so pissed about this. Born in 1969 I've been growing up in a Germany where we viewed the U.S. of America as a friend. An example in freedom and democracy where we have had failings of our own. Now it turns out our friend betrayed us. It views us as the enemy. Everything imagined as a paranoid bad joke is true. But the worst of all: In the USA there is no outcry. The people don't even care about this. Thus: We are not seen as friends. Greatly done, USA. From now on you are alone. Fuck yourself.

e3pi 13y ago

ex-NSA off-grid Edward(!) `Brill' Lyle, (aka `Harry `The Call' Caul' The Conversation (film) 1972 (~prequel)) in Enemy of the State (film) 1998 (~sequel), teaches us a way to get reins on NSA's wild horses is to bug(1) and wiretap Clapper's and Kieth Alexander's homes. In addition to heroic(martyr?) whistleblowers, the world needs angry and experienced curmudgeon tradecraft operatives: (1) "...will find them and have the NSA start an investigation. Lyle also deposits $140,000 into _______'s bank account to make it appear that he is taking bribes.

deleted 13y ago

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