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> government even in its best state is but a necessary evil, and in its worst state an intolerable one ... Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocenc

by kijin 13y ago

> government even in its best state is but a necessary evil, and in its worst state an intolerable one ... Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built on the ruins of the bowers of paradise. I wish people took this more seriously and explored its philosophical implications. In a recent discussion with a couple of other HNers, I found a surprising amount of hostility toward my suggestion that the state and its laws are mere means to an end. But why not? What is there to romanticize, glorify, glamorize, sentimentalize, and eulogize about the fucking government? It's just a means to an end, like so many other things that we invented to make the harsh reality of life somewhat more tolerable. It's only raison d'etre is that, after years of experimentation, we have yet to find a less bad alternative as Churchill famously noted. What Churchill didn't mention is that we've only been experimenting with governments for a few thousand years, with democracy for a few hundred years, and with universal suffrage for a few decades. In the grand scheme of things, we've only just started. So much for the End of History, Mr. Fukuyama! When, after only so little experimentation, people cannot bear to admit that their current government might not be the best thing evaaaaar, it's a sign of a serious problem: confusion between means and ends. Developers who cannot bear to admit that their software has massive security holes tend not to produce secure software, and arguing with them often results in hilarious threads that we see here from time to time under headings like "How not to respond to a bug report". Similarly, people who equate any criticism of or harm to their country with the murder of their firstborn tend not to produce a good country. As Paine says in another part of the article: > any prepossession in favor of a rotten constitution of government will disable us from discerning a good one. Implication: Don't get too emotionally attached to a government. Another thing that I'd really want to emphasize is that Paine was not an anarchist. Neither am I. Just because people refuse to romanticize the government doesn't mean that they'd rather get rid of it. The definition of a necessary evil is that although it is evil, it is also necessary under present circumstances. Anarchists are stupid, they don't understand necessity. Sensible people do. People who have common sense do not destroy things that are necessary. But they are always willing to ditch one and get another if the alternative turns out to be a better fit for the job and the benefits outweigh the cost of transition. 237 years ago, Paine ditched Britain in favor of a new country. Perhaps 23.7 or 237 or 2370 years from now, sensible Americans may need to ditch America for something else. Throw around big words like "treason" all you want, but at the most fundemantal level it's just common sense. Countries just tend to be more difficult and costly to switch than your mobile phone contract is.

4891 13y ago
Yes. Here's something interesting: various Chinese think tanks wonder publicly about if, and when their country will transition to democracy. (Yes, they can get away with this - the unwritten rule is that they can't say "China should become a democracy in the next 5 years" but discussions of longer time periods are not considered a threat). A lot of the left-leaning think tanks believe China should gradually become more democratic, building from the village elections they have now to city, province and ultimately national elections. Some of the right-leaning think tanks have a more original idea - China remains a one-party state, but with increasingly sophisticated methods of soliciting public opinion. Basically technocracy. I think the EU is converging on the same system of government from a different direction. I'm not saying technocracy is a wonderful system of government either, but it won't be hard to do a better job than democracy. Pretty much everything bad people have predicted about democracy has come to pass: - many people will vote on ethnic/tribal lines (true even in the US) - people's voting patterns will be mainly determined by the media, making the media and whoever controls it extraordinarily powerful (if you're Chomsky, this is the corporations, if you're UKIP, this is the "metropolitan liberal elite" - actually, they're both right). - the idea of having rotating politicians managing a permanent civil service is insanely impractical, is not implemented by any non-governmental organisation, and has had the entirely predictable result that the civil service pretty much does what it wants regardless of who is in power. - eventually the population realise they can vote themselves largesse out of the treasury. This is the equivalent of injecting smack for polities; it's insanely addictive, it's incredibly painful for them to quit, and it will probably eventually kill them. - it doesn't even really give a voice to voters. Seriously, all your opinions and preferences are reduced to 1 bit of information every election cycle? And in practice its less than that, because you probably live in a non-swing region, or your preferences are highly predictable (eg, in information theoretic terms, an urban highly-educated media professional who votes left-wing probably only gives you about 0.2 bits of information, because you knew they were gonna vote left-wing anyway). Something like Singapore is one good example of what a well-managed non-democratic state can look like. (INB4 caning: OK, corporal punishment isn't very nice, but neither are most criminals, and since Singapore has a low crime rate its "draconian" law enforcement leads to less overall suffering than, say, the American policy of placing two million people in rape-infested concentration camps. Free speech? You noticed how Jezebel and similar outlets have started threatening the employment of people who say things they don't like? I used to be a lot more libertarian, but I'm seriously coming around to the idea that people have more practical freedom in an orderly state than a libertine one). People here interested in this stuff should seriously read Moldbug if they haven't already: http://moldbuggery.blogspot.co.uk http://moldbuggery.blogspot.co.uk (start with "The Case Against Democracy: Ten Red Pill" and then maybe move to the "Open Letter" series).

by kijin 13y ago

4891 13y ago

Yes. Here's something interesting: various Chinese think tanks wonder publicly about if, and when their country will transition to democracy. (Yes, they can get away with this - the unwritten rule is that they can't say "China should become a democracy in the next 5 years" but discussions of longer time periods are not considered a threat). A lot of the left-leaning think tanks believe China should gradually become more democratic, building from the village elections they have now to city, province and ultimately national elections. Some of the right-leaning think tanks have a more original idea - China remains a one-party state, but with increasingly sophisticated methods of soliciting public opinion. Basically technocracy. I think the EU is converging on the same system of government from a different direction. I'm not saying technocracy is a wonderful system of government either, but it won't be hard to do a better job than democracy. Pretty much everything bad people have predicted about democracy has come to pass: - many people will vote on ethnic/tribal lines (true even in the US) - people's voting patterns will be mainly determined by the media, making the media and whoever controls it extraordinarily powerful (if you're Chomsky, this is the corporations, if you're UKIP, this is the "metropolitan liberal elite" - actually, they're both right). - the idea of having rotating politicians managing a permanent civil service is insanely impractical, is not implemented by any non-governmental organisation, and has had the entirely predictable result that the civil service pretty much does what it wants regardless of who is in power. - eventually the population realise they can vote themselves largesse out of the treasury. This is the equivalent of injecting smack for polities; it's insanely addictive, it's incredibly painful for them to quit, and it will probably eventually kill them. - it doesn't even really give a voice to voters. Seriously, all your opinions and preferences are reduced to 1 bit of information every election cycle? And in practice its less than that, because you probably live in a non-swing region, or your preferences are highly predictable (eg, in information theoretic terms, an urban highly-educated media professional who votes left-wing probably only gives you about 0.2 bits of information, because you knew they were gonna vote left-wing anyway). Something like Singapore is one good example of what a well-managed non-democratic state can look like. (INB4 caning: OK, corporal punishment isn't very nice, but neither are most criminals, and since Singapore has a low crime rate its "draconian" law enforcement leads to less overall suffering than, say, the American policy of placing two million people in rape-infested concentration camps. Free speech? You noticed how Jezebel and similar outlets have started threatening the employment of people who say things they don't like? I used to be a lot more libertarian, but I'm seriously coming around to the idea that people have more practical freedom in an orderly state than a libertine one). People here interested in this stuff should seriously read Moldbug if they haven't already: http://moldbuggery.blogspot.co.uk http://moldbuggery.blogspot.co.uk (start with "The Case Against Democracy: Ten Red Pill" and then maybe move to the "Open Letter" series).