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"Trust, but verify" It would be foolish for a country to blindly trust bureaucrats from other nations, even allies. That's why it's common for friendly nations

by nslocum 13y ago

"Trust, but verify" It would be foolish for a country to blindly trust bureaucrats from other nations, even allies. That's why it's common for friendly nations to do extensive spying on each other. Any government who didn't at least try to do so would be doing a disservice to its people.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
It would be foolish for a country to blindly trust bureaucrats from other nations I don't trust random people either. That doesn't make me spy on them, since I couldn't care less what they talk among themselves, it's none of my business. Also, the second I start spying, I also would need to spy on even more, to see if they're on to me spying on them. Yay, there goes the whole afternoon! It's just redefining everyone to be a potential enemy, because the objective is total control. Amongst individuals it's obvious only psychos or people with something (real fucking ugly) to hide would do that, to anyone but said psychos. Why would nations be different? Because we're in them? Why is it so hard to accept that a lot of what we consider normal actually is insane, doesn't achieve the claimed objectives, and prohibits a whole range of actually worthwhile ones?
- coldtea 13y ago
  >I don't trust random people either. That doesn't make me spy on them, since I couldn't care less what they talk among themselves, it's none of my business. You maybe. But when there are multi-trillion dollar trade agreements in order, and the top dog (US) wants to push a weak bureacratic constellation of nations (EU) in it's favor, then the thing changes. It's even worse to any trade agreement with lesser nations (think Mexico, Latin America, Africa, etc). >Why is it so hard to accept that a lot of what we consider normal actually is insane, doesn't achieve the claimed objectives, and prohibits a whole range of actually worthwhile ones? Well, if the objectives are "get the upper hand on the negotiations" (including "bribe/blackmail individuals involved in them to rule in our favor", then it very much achieves them.
chmike 13y ago
Spying for your personnal enlightment is one thing. Using that information and interferring to bent the course of things in your own interrest is anotherr. There is no clear line between the two and it is easily crossed. So assuming it's only a matter of spying is in my opinon a little bit naïve. That's also the reason why spying people is something to worry. Who controls what is done with the inormation ? How could one defend against abuse of a state? This will be like drones killing civilians ! No one cares. Until it's your turn, and no body will care.
Vivtek 13y ago
So you're cool with China finding out American stealth bomber plans, right? That's just their fiduciary duty, so to speak? You're OK with Russia having a video bug in the Oval Office? Israel tapping the phones of everybody in Congress? Japan listening in on board meetings of the Fortune 500?
- antocv 13y ago
  All of those are not just real possibilities, but you should be surprised if that isnt the case. Israel has access to NSA data. USSR bugged the US embassy in Moscow for decades, using a laser. A few years back, EU found the Parliament building was bugged, surprisingly the buggs where not installed after construction, but during, by US, somehow the construction guys were involved. The entire building was surveilled at all times. If you google it will appear, but if my memory serves this is from earlier than 2010.
- dinkumthinkum 13y ago
  I'm not sure what your sarcasm proposes. So is your plan to mark this day as the day that all nations become friendly to each other or something? It sort of is what it is and nations have to do what they have to do. Personally, I think equating the US with brutal regimes like those of China and Russia are a bit silly, but ok.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >Personally, I think equating the US with brutal regimes like those of China and Russia are a bit silly, but ok. "Brutal regimes"? The US has toppled legal governments, supported dictators, spied on it's own people and millions of foreigners, killed people without trial through drones, invaded sovereign countries on BS pretexts, killed peaceful protesters, grabbed resources for a pittance exercising military leverage and/or local paid lackeys, used nuclear bombs in a war (and on a civilians), even conducted medical experiments on unsuspecting people. Not to mention some other dark stuff, like slavery for blacks, concentration camps and relocation for Indians, segregation until 1960+, a nightmarish prison system, and still keeping the death penalty. How exactly are those other countries any worse? Bothered to ask their citizens -- and not just some overblown vocal minority in Twitter? For one, they haven't fucked everybody the world over.

by nslocum 13y ago

PavlovsCat 13y ago

It would be foolish for a country to blindly trust bureaucrats from other nations I don't trust random people either. That doesn't make me spy on them, since I couldn't care less what they talk among themselves, it's none of my business. Also, the second I start spying, I also would need to spy on even more, to see if they're on to me spying on them. Yay, there goes the whole afternoon! It's just redefining everyone to be a potential enemy, because the objective is total control. Amongst individuals it's obvious only psychos or people with something (real fucking ugly) to hide would do that, to anyone but said psychos. Why would nations be different? Because we're in them? Why is it so hard to accept that a lot of what we consider normal actually is insane, doesn't achieve the claimed objectives, and prohibits a whole range of actually worthwhile ones?

coldtea 13y ago
>I don't trust random people either. That doesn't make me spy on them, since I couldn't care less what they talk among themselves, it's none of my business. You maybe. But when there are multi-trillion dollar trade agreements in order, and the top dog (US) wants to push a weak bureacratic constellation of nations (EU) in it's favor, then the thing changes. It's even worse to any trade agreement with lesser nations (think Mexico, Latin America, Africa, etc). >Why is it so hard to accept that a lot of what we consider normal actually is insane, doesn't achieve the claimed objectives, and prohibits a whole range of actually worthwhile ones? Well, if the objectives are "get the upper hand on the negotiations" (including "bribe/blackmail individuals involved in them to rule in our favor", then it very much achieves them.

chmike 13y ago

Spying for your personnal enlightment is one thing. Using that information and interferring to bent the course of things in your own interrest is anotherr. There is no clear line between the two and it is easily crossed. So assuming it's only a matter of spying is in my opinon a little bit naïve. That's also the reason why spying people is something to worry. Who controls what is done with the inormation ? How could one defend against abuse of a state? This will be like drones killing civilians ! No one cares. Until it's your turn, and no body will care.

Vivtek 13y ago

So you're cool with China finding out American stealth bomber plans, right? That's just their fiduciary duty, so to speak? You're OK with Russia having a video bug in the Oval Office? Israel tapping the phones of everybody in Congress? Japan listening in on board meetings of the Fortune 500?

antocv 13y ago
All of those are not just real possibilities, but you should be surprised if that isnt the case. Israel has access to NSA data. USSR bugged the US embassy in Moscow for decades, using a laser. A few years back, EU found the Parliament building was bugged, surprisingly the buggs where not installed after construction, but during, by US, somehow the construction guys were involved. The entire building was surveilled at all times. If you google it will appear, but if my memory serves this is from earlier than 2010.
dinkumthinkum 13y ago
I'm not sure what your sarcasm proposes. So is your plan to mark this day as the day that all nations become friendly to each other or something? It sort of is what it is and nations have to do what they have to do. Personally, I think equating the US with brutal regimes like those of China and Russia are a bit silly, but ok.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >Personally, I think equating the US with brutal regimes like those of China and Russia are a bit silly, but ok. "Brutal regimes"? The US has toppled legal governments, supported dictators, spied on it's own people and millions of foreigners, killed people without trial through drones, invaded sovereign countries on BS pretexts, killed peaceful protesters, grabbed resources for a pittance exercising military leverage and/or local paid lackeys, used nuclear bombs in a war (and on a civilians), even conducted medical experiments on unsuspecting people. Not to mention some other dark stuff, like slavery for blacks, concentration camps and relocation for Indians, segregation until 1960+, a nightmarish prison system, and still keeping the death penalty. How exactly are those other countries any worse? Bothered to ask their citizens -- and not just some overblown vocal minority in Twitter? For one, they haven't fucked everybody the world over.