6 ms·

so the EU is the US's enemy? I mean, I always figured spying was a form of warfare. The definition is: "An agent employed by a state to obtain secret informati

so the EU is the US's enemy? I mean, I always figured spying was a form of warfare. The definition is: "An agent employed by a state to obtain secret information, especially of a military nature, concerning its potential or actual enemies." As far as I'm concerned, people should be more concerned about this, unless they feel like they agree with their governments actions as valid, thus confirming they do in fact believe the EU is a potential enemy. If that's the case, I feel the EU should take some drastic measures against the US.

carbocation 13y ago
France spies on Germany. Should Germany take "drastic" measures against France?
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Does France also kidnap people and put them into secret prisons? Does it demand support for offensive wars, and do we live in a "post Eiffelturm tower" world? When, since Napoleon, was something like "either with us or against us" heard from there? Also, yes, why not. Maybe the first step could be to stop spying on France, the second could be mocking the spies with baguettes? Because you have a point and fair is fair.
  - gdy 13y ago
    >Does it demand support for offensive wars It did so with Libya and now talking about arming terrorists in Syria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_L...
  - dinkumthinkum 13y ago
    Oh is France the magical country with no blood on its hands? France, I suppose has never been a part of supporting brutal African dictators or anything like that? You're not even serious. On some level your "post Eiffel tower" or whatever nonsense you're talking about might be sort of funny but it seems you are more addressing how relevant France has been on the world stage than anything else. If you really want to play this game, we can just, instead, talk about how proportionally relevant France has been in the rest of the world since the time of Napoleon.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    Or blow up Greenpeace boats in foreign waters killing members of the Crew.
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      This is what makes me so mad at our weird policy of being scared of terrorists. Given the only proper bombing here in recent memory was by the French, why the hell are we scared of jihadists when it was our supposed allied that hit us?
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    I'm not catching the point your making, but am worried that you're saying France hasn't had secret prisons and state sponsored torture. If you are saying this, please read up on Algeria. Be prepared to feel sickened.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  It would make round 3 more interesting. In all seriousness though, what are you referring to?
  - carbocation 13y ago
    http://iphone.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business http://iphone.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-esp...
fossuser 13y ago
There are friendly nations, but no friendly intelligence services.
tkahn6 13y ago
EU nations spy on the US. That's not up for debate. It is a fact. That's how the world works. http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/30/world/us-expanding-its-effort-to-halt-spying-by-allies.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/30/world/us-expanding-its-eff...
- jabbernotty 13y ago
  It is possible that this kind of activity from European countries is in fact a direct result of similar activity by the US government.
  - tkahn6 13y ago
    Ok?
    - tokenizer 13y ago
      Oh come on. He missed a quotation mark so you don't address the question. Pedantic sir, Pedantic! /intentional
      - tkahn6 13y ago
        If it was a question, it was rhetorical - and irrelevant.
        tokenizer 13y ago
        Just like our last 4 comments. But here I am, giving you my morning coffee time. I digress. I think ultimately you have to decide to accept current practises as inevitable, or malleable. I for one, do not think allies should spy on each other. Being caught so would have punitive repercussions such as increases in trade rates. If perpetrator makes a big deal about it, then find better allies, and then they can spy all they want.
- kalms 13y ago
  You're linking to an article on corporate spying. We're discussing spying on government officials on, what I can only assume, is a lot more serious matters, i.e waging wars. This is a trust/image issue for the states, and it's really taking a beating right now.
fauigerzigerk 13y ago
Apparently Israel is spying on the US as well. I get the impression that everyone is spying on everyone else all the time. What concerns me most about spies spying on spies and politicians is the cost to tax payers everywhere. This thing doesn't bother me in the same way as when they're spying on me, because I care about my privacy and safety but as an EU citizen I don't care much if the US finds out something about EU negotiation tactics or whatever they're after. That it's not between enemies is exactly why it doesn't matter much. It's just an expensive playground for a self-important security aparatus.
- acqq 13y ago
  I don't care much if the US finds out something about EU negotiation tactics or whatever they're after. You're then very uniformed: there are a lot of issues where U.S. and EU have very different goals and where it would be of EU citizen's (and even the world's) interest not to "just do what the U.S. wants."
  - fauigerzigerk 13y ago
    The US knowing what the EU wants or plans to do doesn't mean to "just do what the US wants". And if I was uninformed before, I'm no less uninformed after your reply. That there are areas of disagreement between the US and the EU isn't exactly news to me.
    - acqq 13y ago
      There is clearly a significant leverage coming to the negotiations knowing much more than those on another side. In order to be informed try to follow the topics of disagreements between EU and US, there are enough of those, and any European citizen is affected. Just a small example where EU first opposed and then did everything US wanted: http://www.dw.de/report-us-can-snoop-on-europeans-flying-to-the-us/a-2296512-1 http://www.dw.de/report-us-can-snoop-on-europeans-flying-to-...
      - fauigerzigerk 13y ago
brown9-2 13y ago
I mean, I always figured spying was a form of warfare. Here is the problem - you are starting from a bad assumption.

carbocation 13y ago

France spies on Germany. Should Germany take "drastic" measures against France?

PavlovsCat 13y ago
Does France also kidnap people and put them into secret prisons? Does it demand support for offensive wars, and do we live in a "post Eiffelturm tower" world? When, since Napoleon, was something like "either with us or against us" heard from there? Also, yes, why not. Maybe the first step could be to stop spying on France, the second could be mocking the spies with baguettes? Because you have a point and fair is fair.
- gdy 13y ago
  >Does it demand support for offensive wars It did so with Libya and now talking about arming terrorists in Syria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_L...
- dinkumthinkum 13y ago
  Oh is France the magical country with no blood on its hands? France, I suppose has never been a part of supporting brutal African dictators or anything like that? You're not even serious. On some level your "post Eiffel tower" or whatever nonsense you're talking about might be sort of funny but it seems you are more addressing how relevant France has been on the world stage than anything else. If you really want to play this game, we can just, instead, talk about how proportionally relevant France has been in the rest of the world since the time of Napoleon.
- walshemj 13y ago
  Or blow up Greenpeace boats in foreign waters killing members of the Crew.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    This is what makes me so mad at our weird policy of being scared of terrorists. Given the only proper bombing here in recent memory was by the French, why the hell are we scared of jihadists when it was our supposed allied that hit us?
- lostlogin 13y ago
  I'm not catching the point your making, but am worried that you're saying France hasn't had secret prisons and state sponsored torture. If you are saying this, please read up on Algeria. Be prepared to feel sickened.
lostlogin 13y ago
It would make round 3 more interesting. In all seriousness though, what are you referring to?
- carbocation 13y ago
  http://iphone.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espionage-economy-germany-russia-china-business http://iphone.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-esp...

fossuser 13y ago

There are friendly nations, but no friendly intelligence services.

tkahn6 13y ago

EU nations spy on the US. That's not up for debate. It is a fact. That's how the world works. http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/30/world/us-expanding-its-effort-to-halt-spying-by-allies.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/30/world/us-expanding-its-eff...

jabbernotty 13y ago
It is possible that this kind of activity from European countries is in fact a direct result of similar activity by the US government.
- tkahn6 13y ago
  Ok?
  - tokenizer 13y ago
    Oh come on. He missed a quotation mark so you don't address the question. Pedantic sir, Pedantic! /intentional
    - tkahn6 13y ago
      If it was a question, it was rhetorical - and irrelevant.
      - tokenizer 13y ago
        Just like our last 4 comments. But here I am, giving you my morning coffee time. I digress. I think ultimately you have to decide to accept current practises as inevitable, or malleable. I for one, do not think allies should spy on each other. Being caught so would have punitive repercussions such as increases in trade rates. If perpetrator makes a big deal about it, then find better allies, and then they can spy all they want.
kalms 13y ago
You're linking to an article on corporate spying. We're discussing spying on government officials on, what I can only assume, is a lot more serious matters, i.e waging wars. This is a trust/image issue for the states, and it's really taking a beating right now.

fauigerzigerk 13y ago

Apparently Israel is spying on the US as well. I get the impression that everyone is spying on everyone else all the time. What concerns me most about spies spying on spies and politicians is the cost to tax payers everywhere. This thing doesn't bother me in the same way as when they're spying on me, because I care about my privacy and safety but as an EU citizen I don't care much if the US finds out something about EU negotiation tactics or whatever they're after. That it's not between enemies is exactly why it doesn't matter much. It's just an expensive playground for a self-important security aparatus.

acqq 13y ago
I don't care much if the US finds out something about EU negotiation tactics or whatever they're after. You're then very uniformed: there are a lot of issues where U.S. and EU have very different goals and where it would be of EU citizen's (and even the world's) interest not to "just do what the U.S. wants."
- fauigerzigerk 13y ago
  The US knowing what the EU wants or plans to do doesn't mean to "just do what the US wants". And if I was uninformed before, I'm no less uninformed after your reply. That there are areas of disagreement between the US and the EU isn't exactly news to me.
  - acqq 13y ago
    There is clearly a significant leverage coming to the negotiations knowing much more than those on another side. In order to be informed try to follow the topics of disagreements between EU and US, there are enough of those, and any European citizen is affected. Just a small example where EU first opposed and then did everything US wanted: http://www.dw.de/report-us-can-snoop-on-europeans-flying-to-the-us/a-2296512-1 http://www.dw.de/report-us-can-snoop-on-europeans-flying-to-...
    - fauigerzigerk 13y ago

brown9-2 13y ago

I mean, I always figured spying was a form of warfare. Here is the problem - you are starting from a bad assumption.