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The Best Hope for France’s Young? Get Out

61 points by wallflower 13y ago

joshguthrie 13y ago
I approve of this. Related: Will code Node.js for food if given out of France, wanna hire me?
hga 13y ago
"France has always been a land to which people dream of coming. Not leaving." That would be news to my mother and her ancestors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cajun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cajun
- cobrausn 13y ago
  My dear father [...] you can come here boldly with my dear mother and all the other Acadian families. They will always be better off than in France. There are neither duties nor taxes to pay and the more one works, the more one earns without doing harm to anyone. —Jean-Baptiste Semer, 1766[8]
- theorique 13y ago
  Also see: Eastern Canada. (Mind you, this was in the 18th century, but still.)
  - mynameishere 13y ago
    Cajuns were from Eastern Canada.
    - theorique 13y ago
      True, back there they are called Acadians, but it's the same people.
siscia 13y ago
Oh, well Italy is even worse...
thasmin 13y ago
It's interesting to see the EU take form. With the recent finance reforms and articles like this, it looks to me like the EU is becoming more and more like the US with the countries taking the role of states. Moving between US states for the purpose of employment is extremely common. The EU countries have more border autonomy and language barriers that prevent people from moving between them, but it seems similar to the formation of the US and the subsequent 200 years of consolidating power at the federal level. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the next 20 years.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Many of the people I chat to from Europe on IRC confirm that notion. They consider themselves E.U. citizens first and foremost. Of course these are heavily tech-oriented chat rooms so I'm not sure how far that can be applied. But I find it interesting myself, especially given the history of the USA, where right up to the 1870s people considered themselves a citizen of the state first and not the nation... obviously it has eventually inverted. But should this inversion actually happen, when does the USA get to ask for the E.U. to act as a singular entity for things like Olympics, U.N. representation, and other international protocols? ;)
  - thasmin 13y ago
    U.N. representation is a really good point, especially with UK and France both having veto power. It will happen when it's beneficial for the countries to be consolidated as one body because they'd represent more economic and political power. Looking forward, I'd guess that this wouldn't happen until India and China and other currently developing nations have bigger economies per capita than France and Germany.
  - rtpg 13y ago
    I can't recall where I saw it, but there was a poll asking people whether they felt European or a citizen of their own country. The "Europeans" were not very high. Definitely some selection bias (firstly, I guess you're talking to people who are comfortable IRC'ing in English). Also, the EU is already represented as a whole in some int'l organisations (such as the dual representation in the WTO), and economonically the Euro Zone is a block from the outside.
virtualwhys 13y ago
Hang on, hang on, let me shed a tear while I contemplate the fact that EVERY French citizen without a job gets a monthly pay check. It may be subsistence living, but unlike the States where unemployment means credit debt and eventual homelessness, it's living nonetheless, and the state foots the bill, incredible social safety net. As an expat living part of the year in France it's always shocked me how unemployed seasonal workers get up to 80% of their salary for the 8 months of the year they don't work. Where I'm living (SW France), kids will work the summer season in a restaurant or similar, then come autumn, hey, time to go surfing in Indonesia, "pay" checks mailed to the bank. Needless to say, the French live pretty well working or not.
- aeden 13y ago
  Unfortunately this may not be sustainable in the long run unless more people create new businesses in France, and starting a business here seems daunting due to the expense for the social and welfare system. The more I learn about the welfare system in France though the more I believe that building a profitable business here is possible, but it takes an understanding on how to work within the system. The problem is that there will continue to be cheaper options by setting up shop outside of France and that will continue to be an attractive option to low-margin businesses.
- theorique 13y ago
  unemployed seasonal workers get up to 80% of their salary for the 8 months of the year they don't work. My goodness, who pays for this?
  - PanickedOmlette 13y ago
    Taxpayers. And that, people, is socialism. That's the cycle ---> rich country with strong middle class --> right-wing politicians get less and less popular/elected --> socialists/communists come --> poor country --> right-wing politicians are elected again
    - philipp-de 13y ago
speeder 13y ago
I currently live in São Paulo, Brazil... That infamously is on several lists of one of the worst place to do business in the world (because it is first place in red tape and associated costs, also very high in corruption, tax rate, and so on...) Yet, I've seen with my own eyes a ever bigger community of french business people here, there are LOTS of rich french, or young french, coming here and doing business here, and some of them I talked, absolutely hate Brazil (regarding business aspects, violence, and some other stuff), but imply (they never reply directly when I ask, and some get offended) that yet Brazil is still better to live than France... This makes me believe something VERY WRONG is going on there... Usually it was the dream of Brazillians to move to France, not the opposite!
- chestnut-tree 13y ago
  London has been called France's sixth biggest city. According to this BBC article from March 2012 there is an estimated 300,000 to 400,000 French citizens living in London. That's more than the population of Bordeaux, Nantes or Strasbourg. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18234930 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18234930
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - msvan 13y ago
    When I lived in China I met French people all the time; more than any other foreign nationality. I think they're all over the place.
  - nicolasp 13y ago
    I know I'm rather late but I just wanted to point out that this number is likely an exaggeration. See this: http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/more-like-colmar-on-thames/ http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/more-like-colmar-on-thames/
chestnut-tree 13y ago
The figures for youth unemployment in Europe are shocking. The percentage of people under the age of 25 who are unemployed: - Greece: 62.5% - Spain: 56.4% - Portugal: 42.5% - Italy: 40.5% - Cyprus: 32.7% - Rep of Ireland: 26.6% - France: 26.5% - UK: 20.2% - Germany: 7.5% - EU average: 23.5% Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23095198 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23095198
- jaggederest 13y ago
  Yes, my fundamental question about this article - where are they going to go? It's not like there are jobs begging to be filled in other countries, barring perhaps the oilfields in North Dakota.
  - Proleps 13y ago
    > Yes, my fundamental question about this article - where are they going to go? Germany, The Netherlands, Norway or Sweden. Lots of countries left where there is still work.
- ignostic 13y ago
  For reference, the United States' "youth unemployment rate" is 22-23%.[1] And yet unemployment over the age of 25 is 6.3% and falling.[2] One must wonder to what extent this is the fault of our economy and to what extent this is the fault of the youth themselves. I suspect a combination of both: 1.A lot of people simply don't want to hire "kids" to do anything. 2.The jobs younger people are typically trusted to do are being filled by people with more experience and more maturity.[3] 3a. The most in-demand jobs require a college education, which few 16-19 year old's have.[5,6] 3b. We've seen a cultural shift where these kids see low-skill low-pay jobs like McDonald's as being beneath them. Unfortunately, these are the only jobs for which they are qualified. Fast food service is still hiring. There are plenty of health care aide and fast food jobs available, but no one wants them.[5,6] 4.(Opinion) Gen Y has even less expectation that their children work before graduating college. The youth may say they want a job, but have little motivation. [1] http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t10.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t10.htm [2] http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/04/06/number-of-the-week-youth-unemployment-at-22-9/ http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/04/06/number-of-the-week... [3] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-25/why-are-so-many-college-graduates-driving-taxis-.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-25/why-are-so-many-col... [5] http://www.labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/Content.asp?pageid=146 http://www.labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/Content.asp?pageid=146 [6] http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2012/01/art5full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2012/01/art5full.pdf
steeve 13y ago
(French here) Written by a guy who's never worked a day in his life, I find that article to be very funny. French bashing is always done better by the french. Guys, to give you a bit of context, when this guy wrote his first piece last september, the backlash was quite big (which might also explain why he never went anywhere with his campaign at the time). To me this guy has zero credibility.
- ignostic 13y ago
  > "to give you a bit of context, when this guy wrote his first piece last september, the backlash was quite big" I appreciate we Americans don't know everything about the system, but you added nothing to my understanding. This is from the article: >"When the journalist Mouloud Achour, the rapper Mokless and I published a column in the French daily Libération last September, arguing that France was a decrepit, overcentralized gerontocracy and that French youths should pack their bags and go find better opportunities elsewhere in the world, it caused an uproar." We might gain something if you'd try to explain why you think the view that France is a bad place to live for the new generation.
- davorak 13y ago
  > To me this guy has zero credibility. Could you provide an example of an action or stance he takes that makes you believe this?
ronjouch 13y ago
As a French citizen emigrated to Canada, that's a concern I can relate to. The best thing I found to explain what's wrong with France (to quote NYT and add a few of my own: distrust, negativism, elitism, "losing hope", "overcentralized gerontocracy") is this little book: La société de défiance : Comment le modèle social français s'autodétruit (ISBN-10: 272880396X, ISBN-13: 978-2728803965) English Translation: The distrust society: How the French social model self-destructs http://www.amazon.fr/La-soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9-d%C3%A9fiance-fran%C3%A7ais-sautod%C3%A9truit/dp/272880396X/ http://www.amazon.fr/La-soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9-d%C3%A9fiance-fran... Its "originality" is that, unlike articles like the one linked here, the authors support their argument with serious economical and statistical analysis. Montréal-based HNers wanting to borrow my copy are welcome, feel free to contact me at @ronjouch EDIT: ebook freely available here: http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf (PDF, 5MB)
- gboudrias 13y ago
  Can you tell us more?
  - ronjouch 13y ago
    I'd love to, but I read it a long time ago and I don't have the copy with me. If you can read french, I recommend this review, which is where I got word of the book: http://econo.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=2&codenote=178 http://econo.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&... And ooooh NICE, the review made me realize that the book is available for free as PDF :) : http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf , and I'm editing my original post.
Rexxar 13y ago
> French youths lounging on the Champs-Élysées. The legend of the photo of the article is ridiculous knowing there is 90% of probability that they are tourists.
aristidb 13y ago
Kind of curious that the article ends with mentions of Brazil and China... I think neither are the best options for young French people right now - for one, wage levels there are significantly lower than in France. Canada, USA or Northern Europe seem like better targets to me.
grantlmiller 13y ago
France is a good example of a country where its citizens and leaders have chosen to protect the status quo at the expense of innovation, advancement and particularly at the expense of our generation (namely those born in the 80s). This is a trend that I find is beginning to happen in the US... less productive (and more expensive) older workers are creating rules & legislation to protect themselves (unions are classic examples of this... AirBnb & Uber are constantly fighting this). We have to stand up for free markets else we'll fall victim on the road to serfdom.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  You know, you can think that but, ITER, concorde, ariane, Airbus, M51, part of LHC, some air carriers are created partly here. It's not startuppy at all, but I would not say nothing happens. There is some kind of state driven innovation. I don't like it but it exists and gets shit done.
tzs 13y ago
> a youth unemployment rate of 25 percent for nearly 30 What does it ACTUALLY mean to be unemployed in France? In the US, if I lose my job and cannot find another for a long time, here is what happens: • I have to start paying for health insurance. This will probably be in the $500-1000/month range. • Unemployment insurance pays me for a while. • In a little over a year, unemployment runs out. At that point, I'll be living entirely on my savings. • When savings run out, I lose my house. Oh, I also lose my health insurance. • Before becoming homeless and losing most of my possessions. Hopefully, in the prior year I've been eating good healthy home-cooked food to save money, and also hitting my treadmill regularly, and so might have gotten into good enough shape to no longer need my diabetes and blood pressure medicine, since I can no longer afford them. To sum it up, being unemployed in the US means you are majorly screwed. Our social safety nets are just not very good. Our health insurance safety net, for instance, is the emergency room. If you show up with a life threatening condition, they are required to treat you regardless of insurance or ability to pay. They only treat you enough so that you are no longer in immediate danger, and then they can kick you out. Given the choice between providing someone with $30 worth of drugs a month that will keep their condition under control forever, or letting their condition become life threatening and treating it with a $5000 emergency room visit every 2 or 3 months to just keep them alive--the US goes with the latter. Giving them a $30/month prescription would be socialism, and we can't have that.
- icelancer 13y ago
  That is the whole reason people are unemployed in France, you realize that, right? Incentives being what they are, and all....
  - sentenza 13y ago
    I think I have to disagree. Not knowing the specifics of French unemployment benefits, here in Germany, the situation is probably closer to that in France than that in the US. If you are unemployed, you still have health insurance, you get some money, and becoming homeless because of unemployment is basically unheard of. So far, I have yet to meet a person that is happily unemployed here. There is a huge social stigma attached to it and people get depressed because the self-image suffers from being unemployed for longer times. Going a little bit over the top, the whole incentive argument to me sounds like this: Since being miserable does not provide the right incentives for an unemployed person to search for work, the situation must be improved by making them miserable and hungry/homeless.
lesslaw 13y ago
> she explicitly told the 3.6 million young unemployed people in the euro zone to be ready to move around to find work as the European Union allowed them to and the whole European project encouraged them to. That's a great suggestion but which one of the twenty-three official languages of the European Union should I start studying ?
- mynameishere 13y ago
  The one you apparently already know.
LaGrange 13y ago
A bit tangential to the point, but still: get out, wherever you live. If you have the ability (which may be non-trivial), moving country is of a huge benefit. Even if you love the place you live in, you just don't have a comparison if you haven't lived (i.e. had local friends and jobs and dealt with day to day stuff for a couple of years) somewhere else. And just the experience both makes you more interesting and helps you get the experience that makes you better at many higher-paid jobs. Also, having friends around the world can be invaluable if/once you have to get out.
doe88 13y ago
(French here) Maybe I think backward, I always wanted to travel and learn from others countries and cultures. I even did an internship in the US in MV and I loved it. But after reading this kind of article the only thing I want to do is fight for my country, I wouldn't say I'm patriot, far from it, I consider myself European first. But I don't think we're as bad as people (often ones of our owns) try to describe us. So I want to fight against the odds, against our weaknesses and yes we have a lot of things pulling us down but overall I really think there still are plenty of bright minds. I don't want to leave, I want to fight and succeed here.
- spitx 13y ago
  Perhaps its time to heed the advice of the illustrious Christine Lagarde: “Il faut cesser de penser et se retrousser les manches.” (Roughly translated: "We must stop thinking and roll up our sleeves.") In proposing a tax-cut law last week, Finance Minister Christine Lagarde bluntly advised the French people to abandon their “old national habit.” “France is a country that thinks,” she told the National Assembly. “There is hardly an ideology that we haven’t turned into a theory. We have in our libraries enough to talk about for centuries to come. This is why I would like to tell you: Enough thinking, already. Roll up your sleeves.” Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/world/europe/22france.html?pagewanted=print http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/world/europe/22france.html...
  - doe88 13y ago
    Indeed, it's a very good advice and I totally agree with her statement and no doubt it must be true. But I can tell you, people I know are really too busy living their life and for instance I'm myself too busy coding or doing other stuffs to really have time to over-think about our expected downfall.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >But after reading this kind of article the only thing I want to do is fight for my country, I wouldn't say I'm patriot, far from it, I consider myself European first. What does "European first" even mean, though? To be friendly with other European nations/cultures is one thing. But there's no such thing as an entity called Europe that cares for all the people's in it -- E.U, for one, isn't it. The larger countries, and especially Germany, control the whole game. And the law making, representation, etc, of individual countries (and people) in E.U is opaque and authoritarian, more bureaucratic than democratic. Nothing like the US in unity, for a thing (except for the bad parts: corporations and private interests controlling legislation and such). So, I'd say, fighting for democracy and social justice in YOUR country (France in your case) is more important, in the political sense, than any general feeling of "Europeanes". And, sure, people can always immigrate somewhere else, especially within EU. But if that immigration is not because of personal (e.g cultural) choice, but to avoid hardships and fighting, then it's an easy cop-out -- those people are not fighters and not give a damn for their community, only for their personal well-being. And they would just as easily abandon their new host country too. Remember that in order to there be countries to immigrate to --in the first place--, there must have been people willing to stand for them and improve them.
spitx 13y ago
"And then there is France. In the realms of cultural, diplomatic, linguistic or economic policies, the French have long and eloquently insisted on their nation's "exceptionalism." Yet a new form of exceptionalism, no less eloquent, though far more brutal, now burdens them: since 2011, France has seen at least a dozen men and women who have either set, or tried to set, themselves aflame. The cradle of the Enlightenment, France now glimpses a very different light, one that makes visible the darkness of its economic and social malaise. The series of self-immolations has ranged across the country, from Flanders in the north through the suburbs of Paris to the Pyrenees in the south. No less varied are the workplaces to each of these suicides: a lycée teacher, a carpenter, a company manager. Moreover, there is a mix of class and ethnic backgrounds: among the victims are so-called "français de souche" (white and native born French) as well as foreign nationals who had lived for years in France. Beyond the static of differences, though, one can see common and disconcerting themes. In all of these cases, the victim was either unemployed or employed in a position whose pressures ultimately grew intolerable. In the town of Beziers, a mathematics teacher slightly more than a year ago set herself on fire in the school's courtyard--an "act of desperation" that investigators attributed to "professional reasons." Last summer in the Parisian suburb of Mantes-la-Jolie, an unemployed man, learning his welfare benefits had come to an end, immolated himself outside the local unemployment office. In 2011, a France-Telecom employee in the southern city of Orange set a match to his gasoline-drench clothing in a parking lot near his office building--one among several suicides at the company since it began to lay off employees in its effort to restructure." Source: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/print/2013/03/self-immolations-in-france-what-do-they-mean/274059/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/print/2013/03/self-...
drstrangevibes 13y ago
arguing that the french have a cushy system is stupid, people gravitate to the path of least friction. the fact they are moving is final proof all other arguments are mute. Unless you suppose that those who are moving are incapable of evaluating what is best for them. I suggest that those that are whining about how easy it is to live in France move there!
stfu 13y ago
One of the big "issues" about Europe were the missing mobility by its citizens. Somehow it seems that the "financial crisis" intentionally or unintentionally has positively brought change to that area.
kghose 13y ago
Hey folks. I have an idea. It's not particularly novel, but this article triggered the thought. Let's try an experiment. For the next month, July, let us post and promote articles that speak well of a country's systems. In every country there is something admirable and awesome about the people/culture/systems. How about we spend just a month educating ourselves about what is good in different parts of the world in the present. Just as an exercise in trying to learn from the good as well as the bad. I'll start. France gives generous paternal benefits: http://riviera.angloinfo.com/information/healthcare/pregnancy-birth/ http://riviera.angloinfo.com/information/healthcare/pregnanc...

61 points by wallflower 13y ago

I approve of this. Related: Will code Node.js for food if given out of France, wanna hire me?

hga 13y ago

"France has always been a land to which people dream of coming. Not leaving." That would be news to my mother and her ancestors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cajun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cajun

cobrausn 13y ago
My dear father [...] you can come here boldly with my dear mother and all the other Acadian families. They will always be better off than in France. There are neither duties nor taxes to pay and the more one works, the more one earns without doing harm to anyone. —Jean-Baptiste Semer, 1766[8]
theorique 13y ago
Also see: Eastern Canada. (Mind you, this was in the 18th century, but still.)
- mynameishere 13y ago
  Cajuns were from Eastern Canada.
  - theorique 13y ago
    True, back there they are called Acadians, but it's the same people.

siscia 13y ago

Oh, well Italy is even worse...

thasmin 13y ago

It's interesting to see the EU take form. With the recent finance reforms and articles like this, it looks to me like the EU is becoming more and more like the US with the countries taking the role of states. Moving between US states for the purpose of employment is extremely common. The EU countries have more border autonomy and language barriers that prevent people from moving between them, but it seems similar to the formation of the US and the subsequent 200 years of consolidating power at the federal level. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the next 20 years.

mpyne 13y ago
Many of the people I chat to from Europe on IRC confirm that notion. They consider themselves E.U. citizens first and foremost. Of course these are heavily tech-oriented chat rooms so I'm not sure how far that can be applied. But I find it interesting myself, especially given the history of the USA, where right up to the 1870s people considered themselves a citizen of the state first and not the nation... obviously it has eventually inverted. But should this inversion actually happen, when does the USA get to ask for the E.U. to act as a singular entity for things like Olympics, U.N. representation, and other international protocols? ;)
- thasmin 13y ago
  U.N. representation is a really good point, especially with UK and France both having veto power. It will happen when it's beneficial for the countries to be consolidated as one body because they'd represent more economic and political power. Looking forward, I'd guess that this wouldn't happen until India and China and other currently developing nations have bigger economies per capita than France and Germany.
- rtpg 13y ago
  I can't recall where I saw it, but there was a poll asking people whether they felt European or a citizen of their own country. The "Europeans" were not very high. Definitely some selection bias (firstly, I guess you're talking to people who are comfortable IRC'ing in English). Also, the EU is already represented as a whole in some int'l organisations (such as the dual representation in the WTO), and economonically the Euro Zone is a block from the outside.

virtualwhys 13y ago

Hang on, hang on, let me shed a tear while I contemplate the fact that EVERY French citizen without a job gets a monthly pay check. It may be subsistence living, but unlike the States where unemployment means credit debt and eventual homelessness, it's living nonetheless, and the state foots the bill, incredible social safety net. As an expat living part of the year in France it's always shocked me how unemployed seasonal workers get up to 80% of their salary for the 8 months of the year they don't work. Where I'm living (SW France), kids will work the summer season in a restaurant or similar, then come autumn, hey, time to go surfing in Indonesia, "pay" checks mailed to the bank. Needless to say, the French live pretty well working or not.

aeden 13y ago
Unfortunately this may not be sustainable in the long run unless more people create new businesses in France, and starting a business here seems daunting due to the expense for the social and welfare system. The more I learn about the welfare system in France though the more I believe that building a profitable business here is possible, but it takes an understanding on how to work within the system. The problem is that there will continue to be cheaper options by setting up shop outside of France and that will continue to be an attractive option to low-margin businesses.
theorique 13y ago
unemployed seasonal workers get up to 80% of their salary for the 8 months of the year they don't work. My goodness, who pays for this?
- PanickedOmlette 13y ago
  Taxpayers. And that, people, is socialism. That's the cycle ---> rich country with strong middle class --> right-wing politicians get less and less popular/elected --> socialists/communists come --> poor country --> right-wing politicians are elected again
  - philipp-de 13y ago

speeder 13y ago

I currently live in São Paulo, Brazil... That infamously is on several lists of one of the worst place to do business in the world (because it is first place in red tape and associated costs, also very high in corruption, tax rate, and so on...) Yet, I've seen with my own eyes a ever bigger community of french business people here, there are LOTS of rich french, or young french, coming here and doing business here, and some of them I talked, absolutely hate Brazil (regarding business aspects, violence, and some other stuff), but imply (they never reply directly when I ask, and some get offended) that yet Brazil is still better to live than France... This makes me believe something VERY WRONG is going on there... Usually it was the dream of Brazillians to move to France, not the opposite!

chestnut-tree 13y ago
London has been called France's sixth biggest city. According to this BBC article from March 2012 there is an estimated 300,000 to 400,000 French citizens living in London. That's more than the population of Bordeaux, Nantes or Strasbourg. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18234930 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18234930
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- msvan 13y ago
  When I lived in China I met French people all the time; more than any other foreign nationality. I think they're all over the place.
- nicolasp 13y ago
  I know I'm rather late but I just wanted to point out that this number is likely an exaggeration. See this: http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/more-like-colmar-on-thames/ http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/more-like-colmar-on-thames/

chestnut-tree 13y ago

The figures for youth unemployment in Europe are shocking. The percentage of people under the age of 25 who are unemployed: - Greece: 62.5% - Spain: 56.4% - Portugal: 42.5% - Italy: 40.5% - Cyprus: 32.7% - Rep of Ireland: 26.6% - France: 26.5% - UK: 20.2% - Germany: 7.5% - EU average: 23.5% Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23095198 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23095198

jaggederest 13y ago
Yes, my fundamental question about this article - where are they going to go? It's not like there are jobs begging to be filled in other countries, barring perhaps the oilfields in North Dakota.
- Proleps 13y ago
  > Yes, my fundamental question about this article - where are they going to go? Germany, The Netherlands, Norway or Sweden. Lots of countries left where there is still work.
ignostic 13y ago
For reference, the United States' "youth unemployment rate" is 22-23%.[1] And yet unemployment over the age of 25 is 6.3% and falling.[2] One must wonder to what extent this is the fault of our economy and to what extent this is the fault of the youth themselves. I suspect a combination of both: 1.A lot of people simply don't want to hire "kids" to do anything. 2.The jobs younger people are typically trusted to do are being filled by people with more experience and more maturity.[3] 3a. The most in-demand jobs require a college education, which few 16-19 year old's have.[5,6] 3b. We've seen a cultural shift where these kids see low-skill low-pay jobs like McDonald's as being beneath them. Unfortunately, these are the only jobs for which they are qualified. Fast food service is still hiring. There are plenty of health care aide and fast food jobs available, but no one wants them.[5,6] 4.(Opinion) Gen Y has even less expectation that their children work before graduating college. The youth may say they want a job, but have little motivation. [1] http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t10.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t10.htm [2] http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/04/06/number-of-the-week-youth-unemployment-at-22-9/ http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/04/06/number-of-the-week... [3] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-25/why-are-so-many-college-graduates-driving-taxis-.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-25/why-are-so-many-col... [5] http://www.labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/Content.asp?pageid=146 http://www.labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/Content.asp?pageid=146 [6] http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2012/01/art5full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2012/01/art5full.pdf

steeve 13y ago

(French here) Written by a guy who's never worked a day in his life, I find that article to be very funny. French bashing is always done better by the french. Guys, to give you a bit of context, when this guy wrote his first piece last september, the backlash was quite big (which might also explain why he never went anywhere with his campaign at the time). To me this guy has zero credibility.

ignostic 13y ago
> "to give you a bit of context, when this guy wrote his first piece last september, the backlash was quite big" I appreciate we Americans don't know everything about the system, but you added nothing to my understanding. This is from the article: >"When the journalist Mouloud Achour, the rapper Mokless and I published a column in the French daily Libération last September, arguing that France was a decrepit, overcentralized gerontocracy and that French youths should pack their bags and go find better opportunities elsewhere in the world, it caused an uproar." We might gain something if you'd try to explain why you think the view that France is a bad place to live for the new generation.
davorak 13y ago
> To me this guy has zero credibility. Could you provide an example of an action or stance he takes that makes you believe this?

ronjouch 13y ago

As a French citizen emigrated to Canada, that's a concern I can relate to. The best thing I found to explain what's wrong with France (to quote NYT and add a few of my own: distrust, negativism, elitism, "losing hope", "overcentralized gerontocracy") is this little book: La société de défiance : Comment le modèle social français s'autodétruit (ISBN-10: 272880396X, ISBN-13: 978-2728803965) English Translation: The distrust society: How the French social model self-destructs http://www.amazon.fr/La-soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9-d%C3%A9fiance-fran%C3%A7ais-sautod%C3%A9truit/dp/272880396X/ http://www.amazon.fr/La-soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9-d%C3%A9fiance-fran... Its "originality" is that, unlike articles like the one linked here, the authors support their argument with serious economical and statistical analysis. Montréal-based HNers wanting to borrow my copy are welcome, feel free to contact me at @ronjouch EDIT: ebook freely available here: http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf (PDF, 5MB)

gboudrias 13y ago
Can you tell us more?
- ronjouch 13y ago
  I'd love to, but I read it a long time ago and I don't have the copy with me. If you can read french, I recommend this review, which is where I got word of the book: http://econo.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=2&codenote=178 http://econo.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&... And ooooh NICE, the review made me realize that the book is available for free as PDF :) : http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf http://www.cepremap.fr/depot/opus/OPUS09.pdf , and I'm editing my original post.

Rexxar 13y ago

> French youths lounging on the Champs-Élysées. The legend of the photo of the article is ridiculous knowing there is 90% of probability that they are tourists.

aristidb 13y ago

Kind of curious that the article ends with mentions of Brazil and China... I think neither are the best options for young French people right now - for one, wage levels there are significantly lower than in France. Canada, USA or Northern Europe seem like better targets to me.

grantlmiller 13y ago

France is a good example of a country where its citizens and leaders have chosen to protect the status quo at the expense of innovation, advancement and particularly at the expense of our generation (namely those born in the 80s). This is a trend that I find is beginning to happen in the US... less productive (and more expensive) older workers are creating rules & legislation to protect themselves (unions are classic examples of this... AirBnb & Uber are constantly fighting this). We have to stand up for free markets else we'll fall victim on the road to serfdom.

nraynaud 13y ago
You know, you can think that but, ITER, concorde, ariane, Airbus, M51, part of LHC, some air carriers are created partly here. It's not startuppy at all, but I would not say nothing happens. There is some kind of state driven innovation. I don't like it but it exists and gets shit done.

tzs 13y ago

> a youth unemployment rate of 25 percent for nearly 30 What does it ACTUALLY mean to be unemployed in France? In the US, if I lose my job and cannot find another for a long time, here is what happens: • I have to start paying for health insurance. This will probably be in the $500-1000/month range. • Unemployment insurance pays me for a while. • In a little over a year, unemployment runs out. At that point, I'll be living entirely on my savings. • When savings run out, I lose my house. Oh, I also lose my health insurance. • Before becoming homeless and losing most of my possessions. Hopefully, in the prior year I've been eating good healthy home-cooked food to save money, and also hitting my treadmill regularly, and so might have gotten into good enough shape to no longer need my diabetes and blood pressure medicine, since I can no longer afford them. To sum it up, being unemployed in the US means you are majorly screwed. Our social safety nets are just not very good. Our health insurance safety net, for instance, is the emergency room. If you show up with a life threatening condition, they are required to treat you regardless of insurance or ability to pay. They only treat you enough so that you are no longer in immediate danger, and then they can kick you out. Given the choice between providing someone with $30 worth of drugs a month that will keep their condition under control forever, or letting their condition become life threatening and treating it with a $5000 emergency room visit every 2 or 3 months to just keep them alive--the US goes with the latter. Giving them a $30/month prescription would be socialism, and we can't have that.

icelancer 13y ago
That is the whole reason people are unemployed in France, you realize that, right? Incentives being what they are, and all....
- sentenza 13y ago
  I think I have to disagree. Not knowing the specifics of French unemployment benefits, here in Germany, the situation is probably closer to that in France than that in the US. If you are unemployed, you still have health insurance, you get some money, and becoming homeless because of unemployment is basically unheard of. So far, I have yet to meet a person that is happily unemployed here. There is a huge social stigma attached to it and people get depressed because the self-image suffers from being unemployed for longer times. Going a little bit over the top, the whole incentive argument to me sounds like this: Since being miserable does not provide the right incentives for an unemployed person to search for work, the situation must be improved by making them miserable and hungry/homeless.

lesslaw 13y ago

> she explicitly told the 3.6 million young unemployed people in the euro zone to be ready to move around to find work as the European Union allowed them to and the whole European project encouraged them to. That's a great suggestion but which one of the twenty-three official languages of the European Union should I start studying ?

mynameishere 13y ago
The one you apparently already know.

LaGrange 13y ago

A bit tangential to the point, but still: get out, wherever you live. If you have the ability (which may be non-trivial), moving country is of a huge benefit. Even if you love the place you live in, you just don't have a comparison if you haven't lived (i.e. had local friends and jobs and dealt with day to day stuff for a couple of years) somewhere else. And just the experience both makes you more interesting and helps you get the experience that makes you better at many higher-paid jobs. Also, having friends around the world can be invaluable if/once you have to get out.

doe88 13y ago

(French here) Maybe I think backward, I always wanted to travel and learn from others countries and cultures. I even did an internship in the US in MV and I loved it. But after reading this kind of article the only thing I want to do is fight for my country, I wouldn't say I'm patriot, far from it, I consider myself European first. But I don't think we're as bad as people (often ones of our owns) try to describe us. So I want to fight against the odds, against our weaknesses and yes we have a lot of things pulling us down but overall I really think there still are plenty of bright minds. I don't want to leave, I want to fight and succeed here.

spitx 13y ago
Perhaps its time to heed the advice of the illustrious Christine Lagarde: “Il faut cesser de penser et se retrousser les manches.” (Roughly translated: "We must stop thinking and roll up our sleeves.") In proposing a tax-cut law last week, Finance Minister Christine Lagarde bluntly advised the French people to abandon their “old national habit.” “France is a country that thinks,” she told the National Assembly. “There is hardly an ideology that we haven’t turned into a theory. We have in our libraries enough to talk about for centuries to come. This is why I would like to tell you: Enough thinking, already. Roll up your sleeves.” Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/world/europe/22france.html?pagewanted=print http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/world/europe/22france.html...
- doe88 13y ago
  Indeed, it's a very good advice and I totally agree with her statement and no doubt it must be true. But I can tell you, people I know are really too busy living their life and for instance I'm myself too busy coding or doing other stuffs to really have time to over-think about our expected downfall.
coldtea 13y ago
>But after reading this kind of article the only thing I want to do is fight for my country, I wouldn't say I'm patriot, far from it, I consider myself European first. What does "European first" even mean, though? To be friendly with other European nations/cultures is one thing. But there's no such thing as an entity called Europe that cares for all the people's in it -- E.U, for one, isn't it. The larger countries, and especially Germany, control the whole game. And the law making, representation, etc, of individual countries (and people) in E.U is opaque and authoritarian, more bureaucratic than democratic. Nothing like the US in unity, for a thing (except for the bad parts: corporations and private interests controlling legislation and such). So, I'd say, fighting for democracy and social justice in YOUR country (France in your case) is more important, in the political sense, than any general feeling of "Europeanes". And, sure, people can always immigrate somewhere else, especially within EU. But if that immigration is not because of personal (e.g cultural) choice, but to avoid hardships and fighting, then it's an easy cop-out -- those people are not fighters and not give a damn for their community, only for their personal well-being. And they would just as easily abandon their new host country too. Remember that in order to there be countries to immigrate to --in the first place--, there must have been people willing to stand for them and improve them.

spitx 13y ago

"And then there is France. In the realms of cultural, diplomatic, linguistic or economic policies, the French have long and eloquently insisted on their nation's "exceptionalism." Yet a new form of exceptionalism, no less eloquent, though far more brutal, now burdens them: since 2011, France has seen at least a dozen men and women who have either set, or tried to set, themselves aflame. The cradle of the Enlightenment, France now glimpses a very different light, one that makes visible the darkness of its economic and social malaise. The series of self-immolations has ranged across the country, from Flanders in the north through the suburbs of Paris to the Pyrenees in the south. No less varied are the workplaces to each of these suicides: a lycée teacher, a carpenter, a company manager. Moreover, there is a mix of class and ethnic backgrounds: among the victims are so-called "français de souche" (white and native born French) as well as foreign nationals who had lived for years in France. Beyond the static of differences, though, one can see common and disconcerting themes. In all of these cases, the victim was either unemployed or employed in a position whose pressures ultimately grew intolerable. In the town of Beziers, a mathematics teacher slightly more than a year ago set herself on fire in the school's courtyard--an "act of desperation" that investigators attributed to "professional reasons." Last summer in the Parisian suburb of Mantes-la-Jolie, an unemployed man, learning his welfare benefits had come to an end, immolated himself outside the local unemployment office. In 2011, a France-Telecom employee in the southern city of Orange set a match to his gasoline-drench clothing in a parking lot near his office building--one among several suicides at the company since it began to lay off employees in its effort to restructure." Source: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/print/2013/03/self-immolations-in-france-what-do-they-mean/274059/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/print/2013/03/self-...

drstrangevibes 13y ago

arguing that the french have a cushy system is stupid, people gravitate to the path of least friction. the fact they are moving is final proof all other arguments are mute. Unless you suppose that those who are moving are incapable of evaluating what is best for them. I suggest that those that are whining about how easy it is to live in France move there!

stfu 13y ago

One of the big "issues" about Europe were the missing mobility by its citizens. Somehow it seems that the "financial crisis" intentionally or unintentionally has positively brought change to that area.

kghose 13y ago

Hey folks. I have an idea. It's not particularly novel, but this article triggered the thought. Let's try an experiment. For the next month, July, let us post and promote articles that speak well of a country's systems. In every country there is something admirable and awesome about the people/culture/systems. How about we spend just a month educating ourselves about what is good in different parts of the world in the present. Just as an exercise in trying to learn from the good as well as the bad. I'll start. France gives generous paternal benefits: http://riviera.angloinfo.com/information/healthcare/pregnancy-birth/ http://riviera.angloinfo.com/information/healthcare/pregnanc...