3 ms·

It's not ok for the U.S. to hack major Chinese telecoms to spy on it's citizens.

_djo_ 13y ago
Why not? Do you think other countries are not hacking US telecoms to spy on US citizens? The main threats in the world are no longer just states, they're also small groups of individuals capable of doing a ton of damage. I see no way for the NSA or CIA to be able to do their jobs without being permitted to spy on foreign citizens. The protections for American citizens against their government spying on them are intended to preserve political freedom in the US. Security is traded for liberty. That same relationship does not exist between the US government and foreign citizens like me.
- scarmig 13y ago
  Spying is bad regardless of who does it. I also despise China for its attempts to spy on and hack USA computer systems. Don't you? Two wrongs don't make a right; they're just a multiplicity of wrongs.
- gosu 13y ago
  > Why not? Obvious ethical considerations. I'm sick of living on the death star. It doesn't seem possible to me that any non-transparent organization with such capabilities will ever live up to some promise to "just spy on brown people". In Snowden's words: "policy protection is no protection — policy is a one-way ratchet that only loosens". I don't think foreign spy programs are relevant to this discussion. If Pakistan jumped off a bridge, would you follow? > The main threats in the world are no longer just states The main threats in the news are no longer just states, that's all. A few people commit criminal acts in a foreign country somtimes. Meanwhile, states have nuclear weapons and are very often in a state of war. > That same relationship does not exist [for foreign citizens]. Perhaps it should. Your reasoning was developed back when packets had their ping measured in years. One very simple reason to call Snowden a hero is that I want US tech companies to be trusted and to thus prosper, because I want to work for them. In general, it upsets me that some narrative has taken hold where, because "non-US persons" are on the internet, it's OK for a non-transparent agency to listen to everything on the internet, and high treason for someone to attempt to save me from it. Living in China for a couple days and talking to the news isn't "going to the enemy", as you'd so like me to see it.
- eightyone 13y ago
  > Do you think other countries are not hacking US telecoms to spy on US citizens? I'm condemning all massive scale spying on foreign citizens regardless of country. Pretty sure there's a logical fallacy in that sentence of yours. > I see no way for the NSA or CIA to be able to do their jobs without being permitted to spy on foreign citizens. The U.S. is not just spying on specific citizens. They are hacking into major Chinese telecom services and sucking up all the information they can. > The protections for American citizens against their government spying on them are intended to preserve political freedom in the US. Is it ok to spy on American citizens living abroad or are they fair game? "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
volume 13y ago
Let's say it's "not ok" - who enforces such a thing? The International Court of Justice? If so, it sounds like the US simply can veto a ICJ decision: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-international-court-of-justice.htm http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-international-court-of-j...

_djo_ 13y ago

Why not? Do you think other countries are not hacking US telecoms to spy on US citizens? The main threats in the world are no longer just states, they're also small groups of individuals capable of doing a ton of damage. I see no way for the NSA or CIA to be able to do their jobs without being permitted to spy on foreign citizens. The protections for American citizens against their government spying on them are intended to preserve political freedom in the US. Security is traded for liberty. That same relationship does not exist between the US government and foreign citizens like me.

scarmig 13y ago
Spying is bad regardless of who does it. I also despise China for its attempts to spy on and hack USA computer systems. Don't you? Two wrongs don't make a right; they're just a multiplicity of wrongs.
gosu 13y ago
> Why not? Obvious ethical considerations. I'm sick of living on the death star. It doesn't seem possible to me that any non-transparent organization with such capabilities will ever live up to some promise to "just spy on brown people". In Snowden's words: "policy protection is no protection — policy is a one-way ratchet that only loosens". I don't think foreign spy programs are relevant to this discussion. If Pakistan jumped off a bridge, would you follow? > The main threats in the world are no longer just states The main threats in the news are no longer just states, that's all. A few people commit criminal acts in a foreign country somtimes. Meanwhile, states have nuclear weapons and are very often in a state of war. > That same relationship does not exist [for foreign citizens]. Perhaps it should. Your reasoning was developed back when packets had their ping measured in years. One very simple reason to call Snowden a hero is that I want US tech companies to be trusted and to thus prosper, because I want to work for them. In general, it upsets me that some narrative has taken hold where, because "non-US persons" are on the internet, it's OK for a non-transparent agency to listen to everything on the internet, and high treason for someone to attempt to save me from it. Living in China for a couple days and talking to the news isn't "going to the enemy", as you'd so like me to see it.
eightyone 13y ago
> Do you think other countries are not hacking US telecoms to spy on US citizens? I'm condemning all massive scale spying on foreign citizens regardless of country. Pretty sure there's a logical fallacy in that sentence of yours. > I see no way for the NSA or CIA to be able to do their jobs without being permitted to spy on foreign citizens. The U.S. is not just spying on specific citizens. They are hacking into major Chinese telecom services and sucking up all the information they can. > The protections for American citizens against their government spying on them are intended to preserve political freedom in the US. Is it ok to spy on American citizens living abroad or are they fair game? "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

volume 13y ago

Let's say it's "not ok" - who enforces such a thing? The International Court of Justice? If so, it sounds like the US simply can veto a ICJ decision: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-international-court-of-justice.htm http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-international-court-of-j...