7 ms·

I was going to write a comment to this effect on one of the many threads related to this subject, but figured it would fall on deaf ears. Americans should not

by UVB-76 13y ago

I was going to write a comment to this effect on one of the many threads related to this subject, but figured it would fall on deaf ears. Americans should not underestimate the damage this scandal has done to the American 'brand'. Growing up, I was the Americophile of my friends. I loved American culture, I aspired to live the American dream, I fully intended to pursue American citizenship later in life. This is only the latest in a long line of realisations, but my view couldn't have changed more. I don't even want to visit the US again, let alone pledge my allegiance to it.

Roritharr 13y ago
Without wanting to sound alarmist, but I feel exactly the same way. I've abandoned my intentions of living in the US, or even just visiting there solely because of this scandal. Not because of some deeply hurt morale or feeling, but because i simply wouldn't feel safe in the US anymore. I've been on the web for a very long time now, have read all kinds of chemistry, pyrotechnics and bomb-making newsgroups and websites and contributed to them. I've visited a school with over 50% muslim students and lots of my friends are muslim. I consider myself close to a maker, loving 3D Printers and Arduinos, Quad-Copters and the like... I post my political views openly on Google+ and Facebook and discus it via Twitter and Mail... I'm afraid to the extent i'm targeted and what would happen if I tried to visit the US.
- UVB-76 13y ago
  > I've abandoned my intentions of living in the US, or even just visiting there solely because of this scandal. Not because of some deeply hurt morale or feeling, but because i simply wouldn't feel safe in the US anymore. This is more a case of the straw that broke the camel's back for me, but I consider it a watershed moment nonetheless. Privacy is a fundamental human right, enshrined in Article 8 of the ECHR, and one that I value dearly. Now it emerges the United States has been willingly violating my right to privacy for years. Rather than rectifying the matter, officials are saying it's okay because I'm not a US citizen — non-citizens obviously aren't entitled to human rights — and focusing their attention on punishing the person responsible for bringing this to my attention. That is unforgivable in my eyes.
- tripzilch 13y ago
  The week before I flew to the USA, two years ago, I was soooooo stressed out for similar reasons of really actually having "nothing to hide" and the problem where you don't get to decide or find out beforehand whether you had nothing to hide indeed. In the end everything went fine, here I am, back, still got my laptop. Except those fuckers now have my mugshot and fingerprints on file. Funny thing, had I said that 10 years ago, you'd think I did something wrong and ask "huh for real? what did you do? what happened?" ... well, I entered the country, I left them no choice! :-/
dreamfactory 13y ago
Agree about the brand. This business has potential for a very expensive long term impact on US economy starting with cultural exports to tourism and associated services.
honzzz 13y ago
Exactly. When I was younger I kind of admired Americans and their ideals and I automatically perceived them as the 'good guys'. I did not want to get American citizenship or anything but I had spent couple of months in the US, I loved it and Americans were my friends - I used to defend them every time someone was critical about the US. Now I would not even want to visit again. TSA alone would be enough for it not to be worth it. US is like that kid in school who used to be popular and when he got beat up by that bully, everybody wanted to help him. But after that beating he never recovered and became so paranoid and creepy that even his friends abandoned him and now he himself is a bully and everybody ignores or hates him - if he is going to need help again nobody is going to give a shit.
- mikeg8 13y ago
  American Citizens and the US government are not the same thing. While we call ourselves a democracy, the elected officials and legislation they create don't always align with the values of the citizens. It's become a complicated mess but please don't use "America" as a synonym for the US government and their actions. We are all just as upset and betrayed, if not more, than you.
  - honzzz 13y ago
    Of course, I still have personal friends who are US citizens and I still think highly of them. I think it's obvious what I meant. And rest assured that I am very aware of the fact that government does not always represent people well - I grew up in a totalitarian regime. But it's also true that they act in your name (especially because you did elect them in democratic elections) and when they do horrible things overseas people might believe that you 'let them', that you did not do enough to stop them... I hope you understand what I mean. EDIT: I still believe that Americans - the people - have freedom and courage in their blood and some of them will think of something smart and innovative to change the course.
  - mindcrime 13y ago
    Indeed. I'm American by birth, and definitely love "America" as a people and a set of ideals and a culture... and I mostly abhor the (current) US government as it's practiced. In fact (and NSA, if you're listening, go ahead and take note) it would be quite appropriate to label me about as "anti government" as they get. I think our "leaders" are mostly scum and I don't consider any of them as "representing" me, and especially not my supposed "elected representatives" from North Carolina (Richard Burr, Kay Hagan and David Price). The only members of Congress I really have any respect for are Senators Ron Wyden, Rand Paul, and Mark Udall. Our system of government started out with nobel ideas and it's served reasonably well for a long-time, but the decay and corruption are really starting to set in. It may also be the case that the divisions in this country are becoming so sharp that it's not even possible to talk about one government that truly represents America as one cohesive whole.
coldcode 13y ago
We in the US are going to pay for this in the long run big time. Sadly most of us seem to not care.
sneak 13y ago
Bush and Obama have, by acting in concert against the American people and the constitution, fundamentally and permanently undermined global trust in any American company. (Secret courts indeed!) The US internet industry will be lucky to recover, if indeed it is even possible at this point. No foreign business or government or municipality paying attention will ever trust high-value confidential data to Amazon, Google, Apple, Facebook, or Microsoft ever again. Remember that all of these companies have substantially more customers outside of the US than they do who are US citizens. Even if PRISM/MARINA/MAINWAY are provably dismantled (fat chance), we have demonstrated an innate untrustworthiness at the highest levels of government, from both red and blue. Trust is incredibly easy to destroy, and famously difficult to rebuild. We've now got video of them lying under oath - what's to stop them building another in the future and lying about that one, too? We (both US and "foreign entities") would have to be stupid not to expect them to do so, given what we've learned in the last month. In this case, the regeneration of trust simply won't happen. We'll see tons of national commodity services spring up in dozens of industrialized countries simply because our leaders have destroyed our industry with their reckless, short-sighted, fear-based warmongering. Indeed, Snowden's disclosures will be the proximate cause of grave and irreparable damage to US interests, industry, and national security. The problem though, is that the root cause of this damage is shitty, warmongering, fear-driven leadership that is willing to shred every last semblance of the enduring values of this country to game the fickle court of public opinion, pretending to pursue security but instead ushering in a totalitarian nightmare that had been previously confined only to fiction. We passed from the realm of "incompetence" into "malice" territory some time ago— and if you think that's exaggeration, I urge you to review the disgraceful treatment of Bradley Manning at the hands of the US military prior to even being granted a trial. Sadly, I am vividly reminded of George C Scott's incredible performance as General Turgidson in Kubrick's "Dr. Strangelove", explaining excitedly to those assembled in the Pentagon's War Room why it'd simply be best for the USA to launch a nuclear first strike, immediately killing hundreds of millions of people (including dozens of millions in the US)—to preserve American values. The mind reels at the scale of the irresponsibility of these decisions undertaken in our name and on our behalf. There's a damn good reason why they teach the system of fallible humans and interlocking governmental checks and balances to every ten-year-old child in social studies class. (A corollary to these conclusions: the corporate rulers of this country, should they wish to continue existing, must dismantle the Nash equilibrium formed by the MSM/GOP/Democrats, lest continued destructive collusion between the only two currently viable parties in the US completely destroy the nation's remaining competitive advantage in the global marketplace.)
corford 13y ago
Sadly, I share similar feelings. I last visited the States in 2007 for a friend's wedding and had all 10 of my fingers scanned at immigration when I arrived. I found the whole experience hugely irritating and wanted to say: "My own country doesn't even have my prints on file and you're taking all 10 fingers and treating me like a fucking suspect when all I'm here to do is spend some tourist dollars and celebrate my best friend marrying one of your citizens?". It really pissed me off and I had the feeling then that I'd not readily be coming back to the land of the free any time soon. The Snowden revelations have simply sealed it for me. As things stand now, I have zero interest in ever setting foot in the US again. Which is tragic because the American people themselves are generally lovely. We had a great trip in 2007 and my best friend's wife (who now lives with him and their 4 yr old son in the UK) is one of the most smart, fun and kind people I know. I want to love you America but damn you're not making it easy at the moment!

by UVB-76 13y ago

Roritharr 13y ago

Without wanting to sound alarmist, but I feel exactly the same way. I've abandoned my intentions of living in the US, or even just visiting there solely because of this scandal. Not because of some deeply hurt morale or feeling, but because i simply wouldn't feel safe in the US anymore. I've been on the web for a very long time now, have read all kinds of chemistry, pyrotechnics and bomb-making newsgroups and websites and contributed to them. I've visited a school with over 50% muslim students and lots of my friends are muslim. I consider myself close to a maker, loving 3D Printers and Arduinos, Quad-Copters and the like... I post my political views openly on Google+ and Facebook and discus it via Twitter and Mail... I'm afraid to the extent i'm targeted and what would happen if I tried to visit the US.

UVB-76 13y ago
> I've abandoned my intentions of living in the US, or even just visiting there solely because of this scandal. Not because of some deeply hurt morale or feeling, but because i simply wouldn't feel safe in the US anymore. This is more a case of the straw that broke the camel's back for me, but I consider it a watershed moment nonetheless. Privacy is a fundamental human right, enshrined in Article 8 of the ECHR, and one that I value dearly. Now it emerges the United States has been willingly violating my right to privacy for years. Rather than rectifying the matter, officials are saying it's okay because I'm not a US citizen — non-citizens obviously aren't entitled to human rights — and focusing their attention on punishing the person responsible for bringing this to my attention. That is unforgivable in my eyes.
tripzilch 13y ago
The week before I flew to the USA, two years ago, I was soooooo stressed out for similar reasons of really actually having "nothing to hide" and the problem where you don't get to decide or find out beforehand whether you had nothing to hide indeed. In the end everything went fine, here I am, back, still got my laptop. Except those fuckers now have my mugshot and fingerprints on file. Funny thing, had I said that 10 years ago, you'd think I did something wrong and ask "huh for real? what did you do? what happened?" ... well, I entered the country, I left them no choice! :-/

dreamfactory 13y ago

Agree about the brand. This business has potential for a very expensive long term impact on US economy starting with cultural exports to tourism and associated services.

honzzz 13y ago

Exactly. When I was younger I kind of admired Americans and their ideals and I automatically perceived them as the 'good guys'. I did not want to get American citizenship or anything but I had spent couple of months in the US, I loved it and Americans were my friends - I used to defend them every time someone was critical about the US. Now I would not even want to visit again. TSA alone would be enough for it not to be worth it. US is like that kid in school who used to be popular and when he got beat up by that bully, everybody wanted to help him. But after that beating he never recovered and became so paranoid and creepy that even his friends abandoned him and now he himself is a bully and everybody ignores or hates him - if he is going to need help again nobody is going to give a shit.

mikeg8 13y ago
American Citizens and the US government are not the same thing. While we call ourselves a democracy, the elected officials and legislation they create don't always align with the values of the citizens. It's become a complicated mess but please don't use "America" as a synonym for the US government and their actions. We are all just as upset and betrayed, if not more, than you.
- honzzz 13y ago
  Of course, I still have personal friends who are US citizens and I still think highly of them. I think it's obvious what I meant. And rest assured that I am very aware of the fact that government does not always represent people well - I grew up in a totalitarian regime. But it's also true that they act in your name (especially because you did elect them in democratic elections) and when they do horrible things overseas people might believe that you 'let them', that you did not do enough to stop them... I hope you understand what I mean. EDIT: I still believe that Americans - the people - have freedom and courage in their blood and some of them will think of something smart and innovative to change the course.
- mindcrime 13y ago
  Indeed. I'm American by birth, and definitely love "America" as a people and a set of ideals and a culture... and I mostly abhor the (current) US government as it's practiced. In fact (and NSA, if you're listening, go ahead and take note) it would be quite appropriate to label me about as "anti government" as they get. I think our "leaders" are mostly scum and I don't consider any of them as "representing" me, and especially not my supposed "elected representatives" from North Carolina (Richard Burr, Kay Hagan and David Price). The only members of Congress I really have any respect for are Senators Ron Wyden, Rand Paul, and Mark Udall. Our system of government started out with nobel ideas and it's served reasonably well for a long-time, but the decay and corruption are really starting to set in. It may also be the case that the divisions in this country are becoming so sharp that it's not even possible to talk about one government that truly represents America as one cohesive whole.

coldcode 13y ago

We in the US are going to pay for this in the long run big time. Sadly most of us seem to not care.

sneak 13y ago

Bush and Obama have, by acting in concert against the American people and the constitution, fundamentally and permanently undermined global trust in any American company. (Secret courts indeed!) The US internet industry will be lucky to recover, if indeed it is even possible at this point. No foreign business or government or municipality paying attention will ever trust high-value confidential data to Amazon, Google, Apple, Facebook, or Microsoft ever again. Remember that all of these companies have substantially more customers outside of the US than they do who are US citizens. Even if PRISM/MARINA/MAINWAY are provably dismantled (fat chance), we have demonstrated an innate untrustworthiness at the highest levels of government, from both red and blue. Trust is incredibly easy to destroy, and famously difficult to rebuild. We've now got video of them lying under oath - what's to stop them building another in the future and lying about that one, too? We (both US and "foreign entities") would have to be stupid not to expect them to do so, given what we've learned in the last month. In this case, the regeneration of trust simply won't happen. We'll see tons of national commodity services spring up in dozens of industrialized countries simply because our leaders have destroyed our industry with their reckless, short-sighted, fear-based warmongering. Indeed, Snowden's disclosures will be the proximate cause of grave and irreparable damage to US interests, industry, and national security. The problem though, is that the root cause of this damage is shitty, warmongering, fear-driven leadership that is willing to shred every last semblance of the enduring values of this country to game the fickle court of public opinion, pretending to pursue security but instead ushering in a totalitarian nightmare that had been previously confined only to fiction. We passed from the realm of "incompetence" into "malice" territory some time ago— and if you think that's exaggeration, I urge you to review the disgraceful treatment of Bradley Manning at the hands of the US military prior to even being granted a trial. Sadly, I am vividly reminded of George C Scott's incredible performance as General Turgidson in Kubrick's "Dr. Strangelove", explaining excitedly to those assembled in the Pentagon's War Room why it'd simply be best for the USA to launch a nuclear first strike, immediately killing hundreds of millions of people (including dozens of millions in the US)—to preserve American values. The mind reels at the scale of the irresponsibility of these decisions undertaken in our name and on our behalf. There's a damn good reason why they teach the system of fallible humans and interlocking governmental checks and balances to every ten-year-old child in social studies class. (A corollary to these conclusions: the corporate rulers of this country, should they wish to continue existing, must dismantle the Nash equilibrium formed by the MSM/GOP/Democrats, lest continued destructive collusion between the only two currently viable parties in the US completely destroy the nation's remaining competitive advantage in the global marketplace.)

corford 13y ago

Sadly, I share similar feelings. I last visited the States in 2007 for a friend's wedding and had all 10 of my fingers scanned at immigration when I arrived. I found the whole experience hugely irritating and wanted to say: "My own country doesn't even have my prints on file and you're taking all 10 fingers and treating me like a fucking suspect when all I'm here to do is spend some tourist dollars and celebrate my best friend marrying one of your citizens?". It really pissed me off and I had the feeling then that I'd not readily be coming back to the land of the free any time soon. The Snowden revelations have simply sealed it for me. As things stand now, I have zero interest in ever setting foot in the US again. Which is tragic because the American people themselves are generally lovely. We had a great trip in 2007 and my best friend's wife (who now lives with him and their 4 yr old son in the UK) is one of the most smart, fun and kind people I know. I want to love you America but damn you're not making it easy at the moment!