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Many people now feel patriotic to ideals than imaginary lines drawn thousands of years ago. It's an interesting shift, and in some ways was started by the US h
by brador 13y ago
Many people now feel patriotic to ideals than imaginary lines drawn thousands of years ago. It's an interesting shift, and in some ways was started by the US having a constitution (set of ideals) as it's foundation rather than a particular leader, king, or ruler.
- anon1385 13y agoNationalism is a relatively modern phenomenon. The founding of the US was part of the rise of Nationalism. The idea that your nation (I assume you are american?) represents 'higher ideals' than others is rather nationalistic don't you think? From wikipedia: With the emergence of a public sphere and integrated economy in the 18th century, a broader sense of identification with one's country began to permeate society. In England, the early emergence of a patriotic nationalism can be traced to the period 1740-1790 and was spurred on by many of the writers and leading intellectuals of the day. Many symbols of national identity became widespread, such as the Union Flag being increasingly adopted as a national flag, the composition of patriotic songs such as Rule, Britannia! and the creation of John Bull as the personification of Britain by John Arbuthnot. The movement intensified and became overtly political with the late-18th century American Revolution and French Revolution; specifically the ultra-nationalist party in France during the French Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#History
- nraynaud 13y agoI have a candid question then: what did drive the mess of wars in Europe before that? Germany, Switzerland and Italy were a mess of little independent territories fighting each other. I don't think all of those wars where based on religious grounds.
- vidarh 13y agoPower. Money. Prestige.
- sampo 13y agoI am afraid anon1385's text puts the 200-300 year old rise of nationalism in a wrong light. Before that nationalism, people were not global citizens, quite opposite: their circle of life was even smaller (in a geographic sense). Cities, city-states and small kingdoms. England alone was a patchwork of small quarreling kingdoms ( http://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/pics/heptarchy.gif http://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/pics/heptarchy.gif ). So the rise of nationalism widened people's perspective, it was a step towards larger geographical areas being united and living in peace within themselves. So the nationalism was progress. Maybe Germans started to fight wars against the French. But at least now you have countries and larger scale organization, not just a patchwork cities and city-states and local warlords fighting their local neighbours.
- rustynails 13y agoWhat about the Mongols? Romans? I'm not seeing the distinction. Can you please explain?
- nraynaud 13y agounderstood: without confrontation to the foreigner there is not need to take a stance on one's own nationality. There is no contrast to reveal it.
- sampo 13y agoBefore country-level identity, you were probably identifying to your clan or tribe or somesuch.
- kenkam 13y agoThere's a gap of a millennium between the 18th century and the link you posted. I was taught William the Conqueror of Normandy came and, well, conquered around 1066 and mark the turning point in England's society by the introduction of the Feudal System. If you we're a mere peasant you tended to stay in your village and work the land for the knights/barons. They might not be interested in nationalism at that point.
- vidarh 13y ago
- mike-cardwell 13y agoLand
- vacri 13y agoNationalism is a relatively modern phenomenon. How do the ancient Spartans not count as a prime example of nationalism? They had a very clear self-identity aligning with their nation.
- dram 13y agoAnd in two sentences after your excerpt, it says it's closely related to the push for popular sovereignty. This "higher ideal" that the American and French Revolutions prided themselves on is called the Citizen. Let's not forget we were serfs living before this in a time of oppressive monarchies and a very corrupt and powerful Catholic Church.
- mike-cardwell 13y agoStarted by the US? I can't think of a country whos people are more fervently patriotic than the US...
- tnrepublics 13y agoThis concept has been formalized in Munich: http://www.transnationalrepublic.org/ http://www.transnationalrepublic.org/ You can have multiple transnational republics, based on ideas. :)