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> they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it I ask this very non-rhetorically - do you believe that this is a

> they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it I ask this very non-rhetorically - do you believe that this is a totally natural convergence of thought, or is it possible that this is the progression of thought that this particular set of guidance will lead you toward?

Alex3917 13y ago
"do you believe that this is a totally natural convergence of thought, or is it possible that this is the progression of thought that this particular set of guidance will lead you toward?" Happy to answer, but I'm not sure I understand the question -- could you rephrase?
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  Sorry, I should have quoted more. > Yes, Goenka does make some counterintuitive claims about the underlying nature of the universe, but the basis for those claims are phenomenological experiences that people have had while meditating; they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it. To rephrase the question - do you think that these experiences are convergent, in that anyone with enough discipline to meditate for long enough will have them, or do you think that these experiences are the result of Goenka's guidance? To further the question, are you saying that the "counterintuitive claims" are something at which (again given enough practice/discipline) we all would arrive, or just that we would all share something similar to the experiences that they were born from?
  - Alex3917 13y ago
    "in that anyone with enough discipline to meditate for long enough will have them, or do you think that these experiences are the result of Goenka's guidance?" I think they are specific to the technique, but not the teacher. E.g. someone doing concentration meditation (as opposed to insight meditation) is going to have very different experiences. I don't think the fact that different spiritual techniques yield different experiences says much about their validity though. After all, you could easily consider normal everyday life to be a spiritual technique that yields a certain set of experiences. "To further the question, are you saying that the 'counterintuitive claims' are something at which (again given enough practice/discipline) we all would arrive, or just that we would all share something similar to the experiences that they were born from?" I think that for every technique there is a set (in the mathematical sense) of experiences that can be experienced via that technique. And every time you practice the technique, you're basically picking out an experience from that set at random (though certain experiences need certain requisite skill levels). So if you were skilled enough and had enough practice then your odds of having a given experience would increase, but they'd probably never be 100%. You can see that though, for example, with the Johns Hopkins psilocybin trials, the odds of having some mystical experience over the course of two high-dose sessions are about 80%. Some people might be floating through the universe, others might experience the sum total of everything that ever can and will and has happened from every perspective, others might life a life review, others might relive their birth, etc. But the more times you do it, the more of these experiences you will eventually have.
  - gverri 13y ago
    One of these 'counterintuitive claims' is about resurrection. I don't want to give you 'spoilers', but one thing they 'preach' is that Vipassana is a way to get out of the cycle of endless 'rebirth'. I'm an Atheist myself. And on the 7/8th day I had what I would call a strange dream. I was practicing Vipassana on the bed as I could not get to sleep. Suddenly I've fallen asleep and dreamt of being someone else on a distant past. After some time I woke up not knowing where I was and what was happening. For anyone 'spiritual' enough that would be a 'past life experience'. But the thing is. I don't know why, but while there, every dream seems a lot more "real". I think it has something to do with all the silence involved. You can't speak, and the center itself is very quiet (far from any urban center). On the 11th day (when you are allowed to talk with other students) I've found out that it was very common indeed. So I think, yes, with enough practice every one will have similar experiences. But these experiences will mean different things for different people.
hosh 13y ago
Natural convergence. You can reach many of the same places with say, the Trappist practice of contemplation. I've seen people who have similar experiences on entheogens, though the specific content might be wildly different.

Alex3917 13y ago

"do you believe that this is a totally natural convergence of thought, or is it possible that this is the progression of thought that this particular set of guidance will lead you toward?" Happy to answer, but I'm not sure I understand the question -- could you rephrase?

benjamincburns 13y ago
Sorry, I should have quoted more. > Yes, Goenka does make some counterintuitive claims about the underlying nature of the universe, but the basis for those claims are phenomenological experiences that people have had while meditating; they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it. To rephrase the question - do you think that these experiences are convergent, in that anyone with enough discipline to meditate for long enough will have them, or do you think that these experiences are the result of Goenka's guidance? To further the question, are you saying that the "counterintuitive claims" are something at which (again given enough practice/discipline) we all would arrive, or just that we would all share something similar to the experiences that they were born from?
- Alex3917 13y ago
  "in that anyone with enough discipline to meditate for long enough will have them, or do you think that these experiences are the result of Goenka's guidance?" I think they are specific to the technique, but not the teacher. E.g. someone doing concentration meditation (as opposed to insight meditation) is going to have very different experiences. I don't think the fact that different spiritual techniques yield different experiences says much about their validity though. After all, you could easily consider normal everyday life to be a spiritual technique that yields a certain set of experiences. "To further the question, are you saying that the 'counterintuitive claims' are something at which (again given enough practice/discipline) we all would arrive, or just that we would all share something similar to the experiences that they were born from?" I think that for every technique there is a set (in the mathematical sense) of experiences that can be experienced via that technique. And every time you practice the technique, you're basically picking out an experience from that set at random (though certain experiences need certain requisite skill levels). So if you were skilled enough and had enough practice then your odds of having a given experience would increase, but they'd probably never be 100%. You can see that though, for example, with the Johns Hopkins psilocybin trials, the odds of having some mystical experience over the course of two high-dose sessions are about 80%. Some people might be floating through the universe, others might experience the sum total of everything that ever can and will and has happened from every perspective, others might life a life review, others might relive their birth, etc. But the more times you do it, the more of these experiences you will eventually have.
- gverri 13y ago
  One of these 'counterintuitive claims' is about resurrection. I don't want to give you 'spoilers', but one thing they 'preach' is that Vipassana is a way to get out of the cycle of endless 'rebirth'. I'm an Atheist myself. And on the 7/8th day I had what I would call a strange dream. I was practicing Vipassana on the bed as I could not get to sleep. Suddenly I've fallen asleep and dreamt of being someone else on a distant past. After some time I woke up not knowing where I was and what was happening. For anyone 'spiritual' enough that would be a 'past life experience'. But the thing is. I don't know why, but while there, every dream seems a lot more "real". I think it has something to do with all the silence involved. You can't speak, and the center itself is very quiet (far from any urban center). On the 11th day (when you are allowed to talk with other students) I've found out that it was very common indeed. So I think, yes, with enough practice every one will have similar experiences. But these experiences will mean different things for different people.

hosh 13y ago

Natural convergence. You can reach many of the same places with say, the Trappist practice of contemplation. I've seen people who have similar experiences on entheogens, though the specific content might be wildly different.