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And self-congratulations, don't forget those! "Congress has shown once again a remarkable willingness to reach across party lines to ensure that no problem is

And self-congratulations, don't forget those! "Congress has shown once again a remarkable willingness to reach across party lines to ensure that no problem is ever reported again. Time for a raise!" I believe that government can work well for us, it's just the individuals in there now in both major parties are by-and-large the worst sorts we could hope for real oversight.

dllthomas 13y ago
Oversight of secret programs by elected officials flat doesn't work, in a system where money plays such a big role. The only ones who can speak on the issue (with dollars) are those who know about it, and the only ones who know about it are those asking for the power or the contract.
- wavefunction 13y ago
  I've seen it work in real life, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    You've "seen" oversight by elected officials reliably protect against abuses in a secret program? What was your role?
    - wavefunction 13y ago
      Citizen only. I would cite Sens. Wyden and Udall as reliably working within the system to expose the abuses in a strategic manner, knowing how powerful the forces arrayed against them are. Now certainly you can disagree with me and say that they should have exposed everything they knew about the programs to the public, but I think their work over the years has been more productive that that. Had they gone public, they probably would have been replaced by other individuals all too interested in quid pro quo.
      - dllthomas 13y ago
        My point is slightly different - Wyden and Udall have been great in public, on this issue. My point is we have no way of telling whether their walk matches their talk behind closed doors. Hopefully it does, but I am not confident we can count on it. You've not observed it, you've observed what you think and hope is it - it may be, but it's not evidence until we know.

dllthomas 13y ago

Oversight of secret programs by elected officials flat doesn't work, in a system where money plays such a big role. The only ones who can speak on the issue (with dollars) are those who know about it, and the only ones who know about it are those asking for the power or the contract.

wavefunction 13y ago
I've seen it work in real life, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  You've "seen" oversight by elected officials reliably protect against abuses in a secret program? What was your role?
  - wavefunction 13y ago
    Citizen only. I would cite Sens. Wyden and Udall as reliably working within the system to expose the abuses in a strategic manner, knowing how powerful the forces arrayed against them are. Now certainly you can disagree with me and say that they should have exposed everything they knew about the programs to the public, but I think their work over the years has been more productive that that. Had they gone public, they probably would have been replaced by other individuals all too interested in quid pro quo.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      My point is slightly different - Wyden and Udall have been great in public, on this issue. My point is we have no way of telling whether their walk matches their talk behind closed doors. Hopefully it does, but I am not confident we can count on it. You've not observed it, you've observed what you think and hope is it - it may be, but it's not evidence until we know.