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Have you found a version of this that isn't at all preachy or "strong-arm-y?" I feel like a huge benefit to meditation is that it allows people to arrive at th

Have you found a version of this that isn't at all preachy or "strong-arm-y?" I feel like a huge benefit to meditation is that it allows people to arrive at their own conclusions. But what I worry about is that the "guidance" you'd receive in situations like this is more guidance to a set of predetermined ideals or conclusions, rather than guidance into how best to find your own. It's incredibly hard to do anything so deeply introspective without bumping up against existential issues. I feel like having someone guide you through this process requires a ridiculous amount of trust in how they value your individualism. As an anecdote, my wife just competed her 200 hour yoga teacher certification which included a two day retreat to an ashram. Like you said about being told that the chanting is not rite or ritual, they constantly said that yoga isn't spiritual or religious. But in surveying the whole of yoga there are definitely parts of it that are at least "mystical" if not religious. For some of it you can just say "they're not being literal, this is metaphorical" but other parts, such as the chakras, are hard to see through that lens [Edit: as another lesser-known example, see mudras, hand [1] or otherwise]. And then even where there isn't any mysticism there is plenty of "holistic" discipline or rigor being taught. When I went to her graduation ceremony one of the fellow students told me that the biggest thing that she got out of the training was the knowledge that when we die, our energy lives on. While this is literally true, she clearly meant it in a very spiritual sense. As a complete outsider it's hard not to see this in a religious light. To the issue of trust in those who are guiding your introspective thoughts, I see this situation as a huge barrier. 1: http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explanations-and-benefits/ http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explana...

iball 13y ago
You're right - any time someone is guiding you through any sort of spiritual process, there is the possibility of submission / sacrifice of individuality. For better or worse the struggle to maintain your individuality without the resistance becoming a barrier to "progress" is part of the process. On the flipside, having zero guidance would make things extremely difficult
fusiongyro 13y ago
Are you serious? You need help sitting quietly? What sort of guidance do you suppose someone could actually give you that would take any form other than telling you what to think? You don't need help to do this. You don't need a magic tree, or to be in India to do this. Just sit quietly and meditate. Quit putting obstacles in your way and just do it. Forget teachers, instructors, gurus, priests, yogis, etc and just do it.
- iball 13y ago
  Meditation is hard. Having someone to listen to you and offer gentle encouragement from experience when you run into tough spots can be very helpful. As with everything, there's a balance to it, and falling into a dependent or worshipful relationship should be avoided
  - hosh 13y ago
    Eventually, you also learn how to give yourself encouragement. You learn that the universe itself is giving you encouragement. And you eventually learn that the need for encouragement is itself an arising object that passes in time.
    - iball 13y ago
      And yet somehow even after learning all that, you still manage to get frustrated and have difficult experiences!
      - hosh 13y ago
        Isn't life wonderful!? :-D
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  Actually, quiet often I do need help sitting quietly - but that's a tangent I'd rather not get into right now. While meditation is incredibly simple, it is far, far more difficult than just sitting quietly. Meditation is observing and (hopefully gently) directing your mental focus. Try it sometime for 10-20 minutes. Sit down someplace quiet, close your eyes, and choose some very simple thought to focus on. Try to keep your mind from flailing about. It's incredibly difficult. There's absolutely no way I could make it through a 10 day exercise like this without guidance. Some people do this for specific purposes such as working out a problem that they're having, or just promoting attentiveness, and sometimes it's just a matter of exercising general discipline so that other discipline will follow outside of meditation. In support of my original comment, this is the easiest place I've found to apply the lens of metaphor. People will talk about meditation in terms of energy, vibrations, and flow. If you just think of these terms in the context of focus - the intensity, oscillation, and well, flow of focus, it gets a lot easier to accept. Edit: To answer your "what types of guidance" question directly, there are all kinds of non leading guidance to be given. Simple examples include "sit someplace comfortable," and "don't feel guilty should your mind start to wander."
vidarh 13y ago
I'd suggest you just read some of the free material and/or listen to some of the podcasts available first. I've left these two URL's in a couple of other comments - take a look at my other comments in this thread for more explanation. But these are gentle, non-preachy and non-strong-arm-y introductions: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html (Mindfulness in Plain English; free e-book, or you can get the printed version of Amazon) http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/ http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/ (Introduction to Meditation; MP3 recordings of a course held by Gil Fronsdal) I share your scepticism. I'm a lifelong atheists, and though long fascinated by meditation, what kept me away for the longest time was the religious / spiritual baggage that comes with a lot of the teaching resources.
MattBroudy 13y ago
In my experience Vipassana is the version that isn't "strong-arm-y". Your anecdote actually does a good job of illustrating the difference between Vipassana and many other forms of meditation contemporary and historical. Here is a synopsis of a story that is told on retreat: A man goes to see the Buddha and says, "Oh, Buddha I have heard that you are an all knowing sage, I have traveled far to see you. In my village the holy men can't seem to come to an agreement. Some say that after we die we are reborn here or in another realm, they believe that the soul is eternal. Others believe that there is no soul, and that after we die there is nothing. Can you please put this issue to rest, we have agreed that whatever you tell us is the truth and we will stop our ceaseless argument." The Buddha smiling responded gently, "Endless are the arguments of the mystics. Do you see the leaves in the forest? They represent the sum total of my knowledge." The Buddha paused and picked up a handful of leaves from the forest floor. "These leaves... They represent the knowledge that is relevant to the cessation of suffering in this lifetime. This is the knowledge I teach." The Buddha as described in Theravada Buddhism was not particularly interested in specific beliefs but rather in providing practices that help humans to suffer less. The Buddha spent a lot of time criticizing the establishment, and was distrusting of practices that left people with unprovable conclusions (i.e. the knowledge that, "when we die, our energy lives on.") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmajala_Sutta_%28Theravada%29#Eternalistic_belief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmajala_Sutta_%28Theravada%2...

iball 13y ago

You're right - any time someone is guiding you through any sort of spiritual process, there is the possibility of submission / sacrifice of individuality. For better or worse the struggle to maintain your individuality without the resistance becoming a barrier to "progress" is part of the process. On the flipside, having zero guidance would make things extremely difficult

fusiongyro 13y ago

Are you serious? You need help sitting quietly? What sort of guidance do you suppose someone could actually give you that would take any form other than telling you what to think? You don't need help to do this. You don't need a magic tree, or to be in India to do this. Just sit quietly and meditate. Quit putting obstacles in your way and just do it. Forget teachers, instructors, gurus, priests, yogis, etc and just do it.

iball 13y ago
Meditation is hard. Having someone to listen to you and offer gentle encouragement from experience when you run into tough spots can be very helpful. As with everything, there's a balance to it, and falling into a dependent or worshipful relationship should be avoided
- hosh 13y ago
  Eventually, you also learn how to give yourself encouragement. You learn that the universe itself is giving you encouragement. And you eventually learn that the need for encouragement is itself an arising object that passes in time.
  - iball 13y ago
    And yet somehow even after learning all that, you still manage to get frustrated and have difficult experiences!
    - hosh 13y ago
      Isn't life wonderful!? :-D
benjamincburns 13y ago
Actually, quiet often I do need help sitting quietly - but that's a tangent I'd rather not get into right now. While meditation is incredibly simple, it is far, far more difficult than just sitting quietly. Meditation is observing and (hopefully gently) directing your mental focus. Try it sometime for 10-20 minutes. Sit down someplace quiet, close your eyes, and choose some very simple thought to focus on. Try to keep your mind from flailing about. It's incredibly difficult. There's absolutely no way I could make it through a 10 day exercise like this without guidance. Some people do this for specific purposes such as working out a problem that they're having, or just promoting attentiveness, and sometimes it's just a matter of exercising general discipline so that other discipline will follow outside of meditation. In support of my original comment, this is the easiest place I've found to apply the lens of metaphor. People will talk about meditation in terms of energy, vibrations, and flow. If you just think of these terms in the context of focus - the intensity, oscillation, and well, flow of focus, it gets a lot easier to accept. Edit: To answer your "what types of guidance" question directly, there are all kinds of non leading guidance to be given. Simple examples include "sit someplace comfortable," and "don't feel guilty should your mind start to wander."

vidarh 13y ago

I'd suggest you just read some of the free material and/or listen to some of the podcasts available first. I've left these two URL's in a couple of other comments - take a look at my other comments in this thread for more explanation. But these are gentle, non-preachy and non-strong-arm-y introductions: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html (Mindfulness in Plain English; free e-book, or you can get the printed version of Amazon) http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/ http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1762/ (Introduction to Meditation; MP3 recordings of a course held by Gil Fronsdal) I share your scepticism. I'm a lifelong atheists, and though long fascinated by meditation, what kept me away for the longest time was the religious / spiritual baggage that comes with a lot of the teaching resources.

MattBroudy 13y ago

In my experience Vipassana is the version that isn't "strong-arm-y". Your anecdote actually does a good job of illustrating the difference between Vipassana and many other forms of meditation contemporary and historical. Here is a synopsis of a story that is told on retreat: A man goes to see the Buddha and says, "Oh, Buddha I have heard that you are an all knowing sage, I have traveled far to see you. In my village the holy men can't seem to come to an agreement. Some say that after we die we are reborn here or in another realm, they believe that the soul is eternal. Others believe that there is no soul, and that after we die there is nothing. Can you please put this issue to rest, we have agreed that whatever you tell us is the truth and we will stop our ceaseless argument." The Buddha smiling responded gently, "Endless are the arguments of the mystics. Do you see the leaves in the forest? They represent the sum total of my knowledge." The Buddha paused and picked up a handful of leaves from the forest floor. "These leaves... They represent the knowledge that is relevant to the cessation of suffering in this lifetime. This is the knowledge I teach." The Buddha as described in Theravada Buddhism was not particularly interested in specific beliefs but rather in providing practices that help humans to suffer less. The Buddha spent a lot of time criticizing the establishment, and was distrusting of practices that left people with unprovable conclusions (i.e. the knowledge that, "when we die, our energy lives on.") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmajala_Sutta_%28Theravada%29#Eternalistic_belief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmajala_Sutta_%28Theravada%2...