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(OP here) I feel you, but did you read the caveat to all the criticisms? http://news.rapgenius.com/1620770 http://news.rapgenius.com/1620770 On balance, it's p

by iball 13y ago

(OP here) I feel you, but did you read the caveat to all the criticisms? http://news.rapgenius.com/1620770 http://news.rapgenius.com/1620770 On balance, it's pretty chill. Even the people who totally buy in and devote huge portions of their life to this organization are mostly just really into meditation (as opposed to, say, devotion to the organization or the man behind it). Though some of tactics are kind of strong-arm-y, the emphasis is always on getting you to practice a very simple, effective form of meditation

benjamincburns 13y ago
Have you found a version of this that isn't at all preachy or "strong-arm-y?" I feel like a huge benefit to meditation is that it allows people to arrive at their own conclusions. But what I worry about is that the "guidance" you'd receive in situations like this is more guidance to a set of predetermined ideals or conclusions, rather than guidance into how best to find your own. It's incredibly hard to do anything so deeply introspective without bumping up against existential issues. I feel like having someone guide you through this process requires a ridiculous amount of trust in how they value your individualism. As an anecdote, my wife just competed her 200 hour yoga teacher certification which included a two day retreat to an ashram. Like you said about being told that the chanting is not rite or ritual, they constantly said that yoga isn't spiritual or religious. But in surveying the whole of yoga there are definitely parts of it that are at least "mystical" if not religious. For some of it you can just say "they're not being literal, this is metaphorical" but other parts, such as the chakras, are hard to see through that lens [Edit: as another lesser-known example, see mudras, hand [1] or otherwise]. And then even where there isn't any mysticism there is plenty of "holistic" discipline or rigor being taught. When I went to her graduation ceremony one of the fellow students told me that the biggest thing that she got out of the training was the knowledge that when we die, our energy lives on. While this is literally true, she clearly meant it in a very spiritual sense. As a complete outsider it's hard not to see this in a religious light. To the issue of trust in those who are guiding your introspective thoughts, I see this situation as a huge barrier. 1: http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explanations-and-benefits/ http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explana...
- iball 13y ago
  You're right - any time someone is guiding you through any sort of spiritual process, there is the possibility of submission / sacrifice of individuality. For better or worse the struggle to maintain your individuality without the resistance becoming a barrier to "progress" is part of the process. On the flipside, having zero guidance would make things extremely difficult
- fusiongyro 13y ago
  Are you serious? You need help sitting quietly? What sort of guidance do you suppose someone could actually give you that would take any form other than telling you what to think? You don't need help to do this. You don't need a magic tree, or to be in India to do this. Just sit quietly and meditate. Quit putting obstacles in your way and just do it. Forget teachers, instructors, gurus, priests, yogis, etc and just do it.
  - iball 13y ago
    Meditation is hard. Having someone to listen to you and offer gentle encouragement from experience when you run into tough spots can be very helpful. As with everything, there's a balance to it, and falling into a dependent or worshipful relationship should be avoided
    - hosh 13y ago
      Eventually, you also learn how to give yourself encouragement. You learn that the universe itself is giving you encouragement. And you eventually learn that the need for encouragement is itself an arising object that passes in time.
      - iball 13y ago
        And yet somehow even after learning all that, you still manage to get frustrated and have difficult experiences!
        13y ago
kemiller 13y ago
Thanks for posting this. It's nice to know someone had such a similar ride. Makes me wonder if we all were experiencing something similar. I'm considering doing it again, and this reminded me.

by iball 13y ago

benjamincburns 13y ago

Have you found a version of this that isn't at all preachy or "strong-arm-y?" I feel like a huge benefit to meditation is that it allows people to arrive at their own conclusions. But what I worry about is that the "guidance" you'd receive in situations like this is more guidance to a set of predetermined ideals or conclusions, rather than guidance into how best to find your own. It's incredibly hard to do anything so deeply introspective without bumping up against existential issues. I feel like having someone guide you through this process requires a ridiculous amount of trust in how they value your individualism. As an anecdote, my wife just competed her 200 hour yoga teacher certification which included a two day retreat to an ashram. Like you said about being told that the chanting is not rite or ritual, they constantly said that yoga isn't spiritual or religious. But in surveying the whole of yoga there are definitely parts of it that are at least "mystical" if not religious. For some of it you can just say "they're not being literal, this is metaphorical" but other parts, such as the chakras, are hard to see through that lens [Edit: as another lesser-known example, see mudras, hand [1] or otherwise]. And then even where there isn't any mysticism there is plenty of "holistic" discipline or rigor being taught. When I went to her graduation ceremony one of the fellow students told me that the biggest thing that she got out of the training was the knowledge that when we die, our energy lives on. While this is literally true, she clearly meant it in a very spiritual sense. As a complete outsider it's hard not to see this in a religious light. To the issue of trust in those who are guiding your introspective thoughts, I see this situation as a huge barrier. 1: http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explanations-and-benefits/ http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explana...

iball 13y ago
You're right - any time someone is guiding you through any sort of spiritual process, there is the possibility of submission / sacrifice of individuality. For better or worse the struggle to maintain your individuality without the resistance becoming a barrier to "progress" is part of the process. On the flipside, having zero guidance would make things extremely difficult
fusiongyro 13y ago
Are you serious? You need help sitting quietly? What sort of guidance do you suppose someone could actually give you that would take any form other than telling you what to think? You don't need help to do this. You don't need a magic tree, or to be in India to do this. Just sit quietly and meditate. Quit putting obstacles in your way and just do it. Forget teachers, instructors, gurus, priests, yogis, etc and just do it.
- iball 13y ago
  Meditation is hard. Having someone to listen to you and offer gentle encouragement from experience when you run into tough spots can be very helpful. As with everything, there's a balance to it, and falling into a dependent or worshipful relationship should be avoided
  - hosh 13y ago
    Eventually, you also learn how to give yourself encouragement. You learn that the universe itself is giving you encouragement. And you eventually learn that the need for encouragement is itself an arising object that passes in time.
    - iball 13y ago
      And yet somehow even after learning all that, you still manage to get frustrated and have difficult experiences!
      - 13y ago

kemiller 13y ago

Thanks for posting this. It's nice to know someone had such a similar ride. Makes me wonder if we all were experiencing something similar. I'm considering doing it again, and this reminded me.