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>>Yeah, really. There might be some openGL-like libraries but the PS3's API is the GCM If you had access to the PS SDKs how would you not know this? I just sen

>>Yeah, really. There might be some openGL-like libraries but the PS3's API is the GCM If you had access to the PS SDKs how would you not know this? I just sent that to you to help you understand, you can use PSGL (higher level like OGL ES primarily use on mobile and what WebGL is based on) or libGCM (lower level), both part of the same existing PS3 graphics library. I posted a wiki article and many other examples to show you that it existed outside of just my claims which you were saying it didn't. Seriously? My point was platform lockin by differing graphics libs and you proved my point many times over. >> I don't advertise what titles I worked on because I am not writing here in my official capacity I develop web and mobile games (over 20+ titles) that you can easily look into and had a part in 2 console titles and was not talking it up like you so I figured you had a bunch because you said you don't work on games you don't play, I don't think any developer should. But I guess you were just trolling, ok I think we are done here now that the point of platform lock-in and costs on consoles point has been proven. PS4 is hopefully changing that a bit and self-publishing allowed so I'd love to do that. Right now for a small/medium company that isn't sponsored the only real choice is PSM or Vita, mobile markets, new consoles and web/desktop. Furthering my point that open markets allow more in and eventually allow more innovation not just of the hardcore movie type. Also look up Knack which is what they are using to demo PS4, mid core game...

pandaman 13y ago
Ask somebody who actually shipped a game on a PS3 what APIs they have used. Simples. Since you have over 20+ titles you surely know somebody in the industry and don't need to rely on Wikipedia and ycombinator's comment to obtain information.
- drawkbox 13y ago
  I don't think you understand, ad hominems not needed. I never said PSGL was better, in fast I said most use libGCM, only that there are two ways to go about it. I used content (other people, references, forums etc) outside of what I was saying so you could see they exist which you said it didn't, unlike you who just states only from yourself and a 'trust in me' attitude. I was trying to provide you with basic, 'simples' evidence that there are two paths you can take when doing graphics on PS3, higher level and lower level and both are not standard but platform lock-in. Again, let's just end this we are on different parallels and agree to disagree that this conversation has gotten off the topic of platform lock-in on consoles which you said was easier than mobile/PC and I took the opposite that mobile/PC is less platform lock-in and easier from experience, at least more standard. Granted someone who has always made console games might think the opposite and thus let's agree to disagree rather than going off topic again and spewing ad hominem attacks which typically can be defined as trolling.
  - pandaman 13y ago
    What ad hominems? Your calling me troll? If it's not needed - don't use it. Also, I don't think you understand. People who shipped on PS3 know there is no OpenGL ES on PS3, that PSGL is pretty far from OpenGL and had been deprecated by GCM (it's the same "level", whatever that means, it was the PS3 API before GCM). People who shipped on 360 know that DX9 is a subset of the API and definitely don't complain it's "old". Your saying opposite to the above things means you have not really worked on a console game. You could be in a team that worked and overhead somebody saying something that you did not understand, so I figured you might know some people who actually shipped something (if you don't believe that I had), that's all.
    - drawkbox 13y ago
      Really? This is my final response. You keep going off on this tangent about this. I have seen your other threads, very similar, when you are wrong you go off topic. We were talking about consoles being platform lock-in and different than standards like OpenGL, OpenGL ES, WebGL which web/mobile/desktop use (also DirectX newer libs instead of older DX9 that is tweaked for Xbox), then you piped in about the graphics libs on PS. Facts: - PS3 has multiple ways to use graphics library, lower level libGCM and higher level (uses GCM not OpenGL but made to mimic it) PSGL, both tie into graphics hardware. - The graphics API used in the PlayStation 3 is LibGCM and PSGL, latter based on OpenGL ES but is not standard OpenGL ES. - PSGL mimics or is like OpenGL ES, it is on PS3 and PS2, it uses the libGCM subsystem and was made to help porting to other Sony platforms like Vita. I never said it uses standard OpenGL that is my whole complaint. It is specific to their platform! Thus another graphics lib you have to tie into an engine to launch a game on it, waste of time... - Most developers on PS3 use libGCM which I said was used on the title I worked on (I did gameplay and networking, never said I worked on graphics on that title but I do on all others not console related as I like OpenGL ES based frameworks like on mobile and WebGL v1) - Xbox 360 uses Dx8/9 custom version, prove me wrong... on any of these without just saying it from you. You won't tell me the games you have worked on, if you want to validate yourself and keep talking with no validation then prove me wrong on those points by some information or someone outside yourself and your own comments. Otherwise you are just attacking information and me via ad hominem statements which are easily verifiable. You are just some guy in a thread, I tried to validate what I was saying via external references which you also blew off and attacked the messenger further. I don't really care if you have made games or you have not made games, moot point. But the topic of this thread was we were talking about platform lock-in and you went off on some vector questioning if I have worked on one based of my psgl/libGCM and Dx9 factual comments relating to graphics libraries being non-standard on consoles to further prove the point of platform specific tech needed and that it is costly. I stated clearly what I work on and mostly do mobile/web/desktop which I think is more standard and worth the time compared to last gen consoles. You have made this a waste of both of our time. We have agreed to disagree on whether console development is harder than web/mobile/desktop, I think web/mobile/desktop is much easier and more standard, you were arguing the other side. Let's leave it as an agreement to disagree. pandaman, I appreciate the discussion but we aren't getting anywhere, I am sure you shipped games if you say so and just don't want to have any info in your bio or relay the ones you have, no problem. That is fine, all I was saying was I think consoles take more investment and time to develop for. I think we have validated that by acknowledging even from your statements that their graphics libraries are specifically built for the hardware. Sony tried to make it more approachable on PS by making a higher level PSGL that noone uses, and yes xbox still uses an old api, Dx10+dx11 have been out for a while, not updatable on the xbox 360. I am flabbergasted that we are still discussing this topic. I like developing standards that I can use on other platforms like in mobile, web, desktop. I have no problem with people liking the lock-in of the last gen consoles. The next gen PS4 addresses those concerns via Cerny's points. This is the end of the story and last response from me, wasted enough of both of our time here. You said: "People who shipped on 360 know that DX9 is a subset of the API and definitely don't complain it's "old"" I'll leave you with these articles also backing that consoles hold back PC gaming: - http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/03/28/1324203/are-consoles-holding-back-pc-gaming http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/03/28/1324203/are-console... - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.271509-AMD-Says-Long-in-the-Tooth-DirectX-is-Holding-Back-PC-Gaming?page=1 http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.271509-AMD-Say... - http://www.gameondaily.com/consoles-holding-pc-back-drastically/ http://www.gameondaily.com/consoles-holding-pc-back-drastica... - http://www.vgchartz.com/article/84891/are-consoles-holding-pc-gaming-back-amd-thinks-so/ http://www.vgchartz.com/article/84891/are-consoles-holding-p... - http://www.gamespot.com/forums/topic/28366508/-direct-x-is-holding-back-innovation-and-performance-on-pc- http://www.gamespot.com/forums/topic/28366508/-direct-x-is-h... - http://pc.mmgn.com/Articles/Are-consoles-holding-back-the-gaming-ind http://pc.mmgn.com/Articles/Are-consoles-holding-back-the-ga...

pandaman 13y ago

Ask somebody who actually shipped a game on a PS3 what APIs they have used. Simples. Since you have over 20+ titles you surely know somebody in the industry and don't need to rely on Wikipedia and ycombinator's comment to obtain information.

drawkbox 13y ago
I don't think you understand, ad hominems not needed. I never said PSGL was better, in fast I said most use libGCM, only that there are two ways to go about it. I used content (other people, references, forums etc) outside of what I was saying so you could see they exist which you said it didn't, unlike you who just states only from yourself and a 'trust in me' attitude. I was trying to provide you with basic, 'simples' evidence that there are two paths you can take when doing graphics on PS3, higher level and lower level and both are not standard but platform lock-in. Again, let's just end this we are on different parallels and agree to disagree that this conversation has gotten off the topic of platform lock-in on consoles which you said was easier than mobile/PC and I took the opposite that mobile/PC is less platform lock-in and easier from experience, at least more standard. Granted someone who has always made console games might think the opposite and thus let's agree to disagree rather than going off topic again and spewing ad hominem attacks which typically can be defined as trolling.
- pandaman 13y ago
  What ad hominems? Your calling me troll? If it's not needed - don't use it. Also, I don't think you understand. People who shipped on PS3 know there is no OpenGL ES on PS3, that PSGL is pretty far from OpenGL and had been deprecated by GCM (it's the same "level", whatever that means, it was the PS3 API before GCM). People who shipped on 360 know that DX9 is a subset of the API and definitely don't complain it's "old". Your saying opposite to the above things means you have not really worked on a console game. You could be in a team that worked and overhead somebody saying something that you did not understand, so I figured you might know some people who actually shipped something (if you don't believe that I had), that's all.
  - drawkbox 13y ago
    Really? This is my final response. You keep going off on this tangent about this. I have seen your other threads, very similar, when you are wrong you go off topic. We were talking about consoles being platform lock-in and different than standards like OpenGL, OpenGL ES, WebGL which web/mobile/desktop use (also DirectX newer libs instead of older DX9 that is tweaked for Xbox), then you piped in about the graphics libs on PS. Facts: - PS3 has multiple ways to use graphics library, lower level libGCM and higher level (uses GCM not OpenGL but made to mimic it) PSGL, both tie into graphics hardware. - The graphics API used in the PlayStation 3 is LibGCM and PSGL, latter based on OpenGL ES but is not standard OpenGL ES. - PSGL mimics or is like OpenGL ES, it is on PS3 and PS2, it uses the libGCM subsystem and was made to help porting to other Sony platforms like Vita. I never said it uses standard OpenGL that is my whole complaint. It is specific to their platform! Thus another graphics lib you have to tie into an engine to launch a game on it, waste of time... - Most developers on PS3 use libGCM which I said was used on the title I worked on (I did gameplay and networking, never said I worked on graphics on that title but I do on all others not console related as I like OpenGL ES based frameworks like on mobile and WebGL v1) - Xbox 360 uses Dx8/9 custom version, prove me wrong... on any of these without just saying it from you. You won't tell me the games you have worked on, if you want to validate yourself and keep talking with no validation then prove me wrong on those points by some information or someone outside yourself and your own comments. Otherwise you are just attacking information and me via ad hominem statements which are easily verifiable. You are just some guy in a thread, I tried to validate what I was saying via external references which you also blew off and attacked the messenger further. I don't really care if you have made games or you have not made games, moot point. But the topic of this thread was we were talking about platform lock-in and you went off on some vector questioning if I have worked on one based of my psgl/libGCM and Dx9 factual comments relating to graphics libraries being non-standard on consoles to further prove the point of platform specific tech needed and that it is costly. I stated clearly what I work on and mostly do mobile/web/desktop which I think is more standard and worth the time compared to last gen consoles. You have made this a waste of both of our time. We have agreed to disagree on whether console development is harder than web/mobile/desktop, I think web/mobile/desktop is much easier and more standard, you were arguing the other side. Let's leave it as an agreement to disagree. pandaman, I appreciate the discussion but we aren't getting anywhere, I am sure you shipped games if you say so and just don't want to have any info in your bio or relay the ones you have, no problem. That is fine, all I was saying was I think consoles take more investment and time to develop for. I think we have validated that by acknowledging even from your statements that their graphics libraries are specifically built for the hardware. Sony tried to make it more approachable on PS by making a higher level PSGL that noone uses, and yes xbox still uses an old api, Dx10+dx11 have been out for a while, not updatable on the xbox 360. I am flabbergasted that we are still discussing this topic. I like developing standards that I can use on other platforms like in mobile, web, desktop. I have no problem with people liking the lock-in of the last gen consoles. The next gen PS4 addresses those concerns via Cerny's points. This is the end of the story and last response from me, wasted enough of both of our time here. You said: "People who shipped on 360 know that DX9 is a subset of the API and definitely don't complain it's "old"" I'll leave you with these articles also backing that consoles hold back PC gaming: - http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/03/28/1324203/are-consoles-holding-back-pc-gaming http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/03/28/1324203/are-console... - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.271509-AMD-Says-Long-in-the-Tooth-DirectX-is-Holding-Back-PC-Gaming?page=1 http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.271509-AMD-Say... - http://www.gameondaily.com/consoles-holding-pc-back-drastically/ http://www.gameondaily.com/consoles-holding-pc-back-drastica... - http://www.vgchartz.com/article/84891/are-consoles-holding-pc-gaming-back-amd-thinks-so/ http://www.vgchartz.com/article/84891/are-consoles-holding-p... - http://www.gamespot.com/forums/topic/28366508/-direct-x-is-holding-back-innovation-and-performance-on-pc- http://www.gamespot.com/forums/topic/28366508/-direct-x-is-h... - http://pc.mmgn.com/Articles/Are-consoles-holding-back-the-gaming-ind http://pc.mmgn.com/Articles/Are-consoles-holding-back-the-ga...