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The last section on cultish teachings seems like a deal breaker for me. I've read this a couple times and I just want to go to this place, and meditate in a saf

The last section on cultish teachings seems like a deal breaker for me. I've read this a couple times and I just want to go to this place, and meditate in a safe place. I don't really want to be preached to.

iball 13y ago
(OP here) I feel you, but did you read the caveat to all the criticisms? http://news.rapgenius.com/1620770 http://news.rapgenius.com/1620770 On balance, it's pretty chill. Even the people who totally buy in and devote huge portions of their life to this organization are mostly just really into meditation (as opposed to, say, devotion to the organization or the man behind it). Though some of tactics are kind of strong-arm-y, the emphasis is always on getting you to practice a very simple, effective form of meditation
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  Have you found a version of this that isn't at all preachy or "strong-arm-y?" I feel like a huge benefit to meditation is that it allows people to arrive at their own conclusions. But what I worry about is that the "guidance" you'd receive in situations like this is more guidance to a set of predetermined ideals or conclusions, rather than guidance into how best to find your own. It's incredibly hard to do anything so deeply introspective without bumping up against existential issues. I feel like having someone guide you through this process requires a ridiculous amount of trust in how they value your individualism. As an anecdote, my wife just competed her 200 hour yoga teacher certification which included a two day retreat to an ashram. Like you said about being told that the chanting is not rite or ritual, they constantly said that yoga isn't spiritual or religious. But in surveying the whole of yoga there are definitely parts of it that are at least "mystical" if not religious. For some of it you can just say "they're not being literal, this is metaphorical" but other parts, such as the chakras, are hard to see through that lens [Edit: as another lesser-known example, see mudras, hand [1] or otherwise]. And then even where there isn't any mysticism there is plenty of "holistic" discipline or rigor being taught. When I went to her graduation ceremony one of the fellow students told me that the biggest thing that she got out of the training was the knowledge that when we die, our energy lives on. While this is literally true, she clearly meant it in a very spiritual sense. As a complete outsider it's hard not to see this in a religious light. To the issue of trust in those who are guiding your introspective thoughts, I see this situation as a huge barrier. 1: http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explanations-and-benefits/ http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explana...
  - iball 13y ago
    You're right - any time someone is guiding you through any sort of spiritual process, there is the possibility of submission / sacrifice of individuality. For better or worse the struggle to maintain your individuality without the resistance becoming a barrier to "progress" is part of the process. On the flipside, having zero guidance would make things extremely difficult
  - fusiongyro 13y ago
    Are you serious? You need help sitting quietly? What sort of guidance do you suppose someone could actually give you that would take any form other than telling you what to think? You don't need help to do this. You don't need a magic tree, or to be in India to do this. Just sit quietly and meditate. Quit putting obstacles in your way and just do it. Forget teachers, instructors, gurus, priests, yogis, etc and just do it.
    - iball 13y ago
      Meditation is hard. Having someone to listen to you and offer gentle encouragement from experience when you run into tough spots can be very helpful. As with everything, there's a balance to it, and falling into a dependent or worshipful relationship should be avoided
      - hosh 13y ago
        Eventually, you also learn how to give yourself encouragement. You learn that the universe itself is giving you encouragement. And you eventually learn that the need for encouragement is itself an arising object that passes in time.
        iball 13y ago
        And yet somehow even after learning all that, you still manage to get frustrated and have difficult experiences!
        13y ago
- kemiller 13y ago
  Thanks for posting this. It's nice to know someone had such a similar ride. Makes me wonder if we all were experiencing something similar. I'm considering doing it again, and this reminded me.
bornhuetter 13y ago
It's really not so bad. I've done 3 Goenka courses and I have no religious affiliation (neither before nor after). He does say some things that are definitely coming from a Hindu mindset/bias, but 99% of the course is just about meditation plain and simple.
kemiller 13y ago
I'm with you there. OP's experience is startlingly similar to mine. I hated the chanting, the obvious eastern cultural bias (an overzealous assistant told me not to point my feet at the TV while GoenkaHeadroom was talking), the vague conservative morality, the claims to nonsectarianness while still referencing reincarnation, etc. But the technique really works, and the gestalt of their teaching method does work, and I was, also, literally a different person than when I went in. I'll say this for the chanting: by the time it starts up at about minute 55, it is the sweetest sound you can possibly imagine.
- hosh 13y ago
  - There are good reasons for the feet thing, but ultimately ... someone who has great equinmaity won't be bothered much by your feet pointing at him, or not pointing at him, your zealous worship, your respect, your lack of respect, or your disrespect. So someone who gets upset over that, well, if the teacher remains equanimous, that means the one who is thrashing is the student. - The overzealous assistant has his own thing going on, and so do you. That's actually an AWESOME interaction to have. How do you feel about it? Where is coming from your body? Good fodder for vipassana. - The Trappist monks has the same practiced with a different set of cultural bias. Something to investigate. - You can look up Daniel Ingram's book, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. It's a little advanced, but the coolest thing about his book is that the framework he talks about is flexible enough that you can see the underlying practice regardless of cultural biases. - When you reach a tipping point of realization, you find yourself not at all bothered by these cultural biases or little difference. The essential practice is still the same. - The conservative morality and reincarnation falls out of the insights people have doing these practices. Ingram has a great teaching, that morality is putting the realization you received on the cushion in every day life. It might manifest as conservative, it might not. The important thing is that *you* are living the realizations you received through your practice. The labels, conservative or otherwise, eventually fall away. - Likewise, it is quite all right for you not to believe in reincarnation. You do this long enough, you start finding things about incarnation cycles. Until you've had those experiences, that one is a tough one to swallow for most people. And why should they accept it when they have not directly realized it?
santu11 13y ago
Hey, I have done the course multiple times. It is not cultish at all. Even though some rules like not pointing the feet, segregation etc. look very rigid. But they make perfect sense as you understand the concept behind it all. The rules are made so that there is as little disturbance as possible to your meditation practice. In an ideal meditation retreat of this kind, a person stays alone and meditates alone. So some rigid rules are made to help create such a condition. The best thing what I liked was I did not have to believe in anything to start with. You benefit a lot if you practice the meditation and forget about understanding every piece of information.
Alex3917 13y ago
"The last section on cultish teachings seems like a deal breaker for me." I've done the same program at the same location, and it's really not cultish at all. Essentially you're not allowed to do anything that would distract you (or others) from meditating, and that's it. (E.g. you're not allowed to talk with others or eat junk food, as with most similar programs.) The teachings obviously come from a certain sect of buddhism, but that's why you're there. Yes, Goenka does make some counterintuitive claims about the underlying nature of the universe, but the basis for those claims are phenomenological experiences that people have had while meditating; they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it. There are certainly a few aspects that are less than ideal, e.g. there isn't really any way to get medical advice if you need it apart from just quitting the program. But other than that it's hard to complain. It's free, the food is amazing, the quality of instruction is very high, the people are great, etc.
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  > they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it I ask this very non-rhetorically - do you believe that this is a totally natural convergence of thought, or is it possible that this is the progression of thought that this particular set of guidance will lead you toward?
  - Alex3917 13y ago
    "do you believe that this is a totally natural convergence of thought, or is it possible that this is the progression of thought that this particular set of guidance will lead you toward?" Happy to answer, but I'm not sure I understand the question -- could you rephrase?
    - benjamincburns 13y ago
      Sorry, I should have quoted more. > Yes, Goenka does make some counterintuitive claims about the underlying nature of the universe, but the basis for those claims are phenomenological experiences that people have had while meditating; they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it. To rephrase the question - do you think that these experiences are convergent, in that anyone with enough discipline to meditate for long enough will have them, or do you think that these experiences are the result of Goenka's guidance? To further the question, are you saying that the "counterintuitive claims" are something at which (again given enough practice/discipline) we all would arrive, or just that we would all share something similar to the experiences that they were born from?
hosh 13y ago
Those are more likely your own projections and hangups. It's ok though. For example, there is no "safe" place to meditate, though some places are more stimulating and dynamic than others. There's enough literature out there that you can give vipassana a try on your own. It may be harder to be honest about yourself, but you don't have to meditate in a group or at a retreat.

iball 13y ago

(OP here) I feel you, but did you read the caveat to all the criticisms? http://news.rapgenius.com/1620770 http://news.rapgenius.com/1620770 On balance, it's pretty chill. Even the people who totally buy in and devote huge portions of their life to this organization are mostly just really into meditation (as opposed to, say, devotion to the organization or the man behind it). Though some of tactics are kind of strong-arm-y, the emphasis is always on getting you to practice a very simple, effective form of meditation

benjamincburns 13y ago
Have you found a version of this that isn't at all preachy or "strong-arm-y?" I feel like a huge benefit to meditation is that it allows people to arrive at their own conclusions. But what I worry about is that the "guidance" you'd receive in situations like this is more guidance to a set of predetermined ideals or conclusions, rather than guidance into how best to find your own. It's incredibly hard to do anything so deeply introspective without bumping up against existential issues. I feel like having someone guide you through this process requires a ridiculous amount of trust in how they value your individualism. As an anecdote, my wife just competed her 200 hour yoga teacher certification which included a two day retreat to an ashram. Like you said about being told that the chanting is not rite or ritual, they constantly said that yoga isn't spiritual or religious. But in surveying the whole of yoga there are definitely parts of it that are at least "mystical" if not religious. For some of it you can just say "they're not being literal, this is metaphorical" but other parts, such as the chakras, are hard to see through that lens [Edit: as another lesser-known example, see mudras, hand [1] or otherwise]. And then even where there isn't any mysticism there is plenty of "holistic" discipline or rigor being taught. When I went to her graduation ceremony one of the fellow students told me that the biggest thing that she got out of the training was the knowledge that when we die, our energy lives on. While this is literally true, she clearly meant it in a very spiritual sense. As a complete outsider it's hard not to see this in a religious light. To the issue of trust in those who are guiding your introspective thoughts, I see this situation as a huge barrier. 1: http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explanations-and-benefits/ http://www.eyogaforbeginners.com/hand-mudra-meanings-explana...
- iball 13y ago
  You're right - any time someone is guiding you through any sort of spiritual process, there is the possibility of submission / sacrifice of individuality. For better or worse the struggle to maintain your individuality without the resistance becoming a barrier to "progress" is part of the process. On the flipside, having zero guidance would make things extremely difficult
- fusiongyro 13y ago
  Are you serious? You need help sitting quietly? What sort of guidance do you suppose someone could actually give you that would take any form other than telling you what to think? You don't need help to do this. You don't need a magic tree, or to be in India to do this. Just sit quietly and meditate. Quit putting obstacles in your way and just do it. Forget teachers, instructors, gurus, priests, yogis, etc and just do it.
  - iball 13y ago
    Meditation is hard. Having someone to listen to you and offer gentle encouragement from experience when you run into tough spots can be very helpful. As with everything, there's a balance to it, and falling into a dependent or worshipful relationship should be avoided
    - hosh 13y ago
      Eventually, you also learn how to give yourself encouragement. You learn that the universe itself is giving you encouragement. And you eventually learn that the need for encouragement is itself an arising object that passes in time.
      - iball 13y ago
        And yet somehow even after learning all that, you still manage to get frustrated and have difficult experiences!
        13y ago
kemiller 13y ago
Thanks for posting this. It's nice to know someone had such a similar ride. Makes me wonder if we all were experiencing something similar. I'm considering doing it again, and this reminded me.

bornhuetter 13y ago

It's really not so bad. I've done 3 Goenka courses and I have no religious affiliation (neither before nor after). He does say some things that are definitely coming from a Hindu mindset/bias, but 99% of the course is just about meditation plain and simple.

kemiller 13y ago

I'm with you there. OP's experience is startlingly similar to mine. I hated the chanting, the obvious eastern cultural bias (an overzealous assistant told me not to point my feet at the TV while GoenkaHeadroom was talking), the vague conservative morality, the claims to nonsectarianness while still referencing reincarnation, etc. But the technique really works, and the gestalt of their teaching method does work, and I was, also, literally a different person than when I went in. I'll say this for the chanting: by the time it starts up at about minute 55, it is the sweetest sound you can possibly imagine.

hosh 13y ago
- There are good reasons for the feet thing, but ultimately ... someone who has great equinmaity won't be bothered much by your feet pointing at him, or not pointing at him, your zealous worship, your respect, your lack of respect, or your disrespect. So someone who gets upset over that, well, if the teacher remains equanimous, that means the one who is thrashing is the student. - The overzealous assistant has his own thing going on, and so do you. That's actually an AWESOME interaction to have. How do you feel about it? Where is coming from your body? Good fodder for vipassana. - The Trappist monks has the same practiced with a different set of cultural bias. Something to investigate. - You can look up Daniel Ingram's book, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. It's a little advanced, but the coolest thing about his book is that the framework he talks about is flexible enough that you can see the underlying practice regardless of cultural biases. - When you reach a tipping point of realization, you find yourself not at all bothered by these cultural biases or little difference. The essential practice is still the same. - The conservative morality and reincarnation falls out of the insights people have doing these practices. Ingram has a great teaching, that morality is putting the realization you received on the cushion in every day life. It might manifest as conservative, it might not. The important thing is that *you* are living the realizations you received through your practice. The labels, conservative or otherwise, eventually fall away. - Likewise, it is quite all right for you not to believe in reincarnation. You do this long enough, you start finding things about incarnation cycles. Until you've had those experiences, that one is a tough one to swallow for most people. And why should they accept it when they have not directly realized it?

santu11 13y ago

Hey, I have done the course multiple times. It is not cultish at all. Even though some rules like not pointing the feet, segregation etc. look very rigid. But they make perfect sense as you understand the concept behind it all. The rules are made so that there is as little disturbance as possible to your meditation practice. In an ideal meditation retreat of this kind, a person stays alone and meditates alone. So some rigid rules are made to help create such a condition. The best thing what I liked was I did not have to believe in anything to start with. You benefit a lot if you practice the meditation and forget about understanding every piece of information.

Alex3917 13y ago

"The last section on cultish teachings seems like a deal breaker for me." I've done the same program at the same location, and it's really not cultish at all. Essentially you're not allowed to do anything that would distract you (or others) from meditating, and that's it. (E.g. you're not allowed to talk with others or eat junk food, as with most similar programs.) The teachings obviously come from a certain sect of buddhism, but that's why you're there. Yes, Goenka does make some counterintuitive claims about the underlying nature of the universe, but the basis for those claims are phenomenological experiences that people have had while meditating; they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it. There are certainly a few aspects that are less than ideal, e.g. there isn't really any way to get medical advice if you need it apart from just quitting the program. But other than that it's hard to complain. It's free, the food is amazing, the quality of instruction is very high, the people are great, etc.

benjamincburns 13y ago
> they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it I ask this very non-rhetorically - do you believe that this is a totally natural convergence of thought, or is it possible that this is the progression of thought that this particular set of guidance will lead you toward?
- Alex3917 13y ago
  "do you believe that this is a totally natural convergence of thought, or is it possible that this is the progression of thought that this particular set of guidance will lead you toward?" Happy to answer, but I'm not sure I understand the question -- could you rephrase?
  - benjamincburns 13y ago
    Sorry, I should have quoted more. > Yes, Goenka does make some counterintuitive claims about the underlying nature of the universe, but the basis for those claims are phenomenological experiences that people have had while meditating; they come from the same set of experiences that you yourself will have if you stick with it. To rephrase the question - do you think that these experiences are convergent, in that anyone with enough discipline to meditate for long enough will have them, or do you think that these experiences are the result of Goenka's guidance? To further the question, are you saying that the "counterintuitive claims" are something at which (again given enough practice/discipline) we all would arrive, or just that we would all share something similar to the experiences that they were born from?

hosh 13y ago

Those are more likely your own projections and hangups. It's ok though. For example, there is no "safe" place to meditate, though some places are more stimulating and dynamic than others. There's enough literature out there that you can give vipassana a try on your own. It may be harder to be honest about yourself, but you don't have to meditate in a group or at a retreat.