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What is even worse is that the next president - who taught constitutional law for more than a decade - cannot see the problem with his government spying on ever

by flexie 13y ago

What is even worse is that the next president - who taught constitutional law for more than a decade - cannot see the problem with his government spying on everybody.

rayiner 13y ago
My wife mentioned this in the car yesterday, and I think its apt. Bush was an MBA. He didn't care about the law, he just ignored it. Obama is a JD. He does care about the law, but he's also willing to entertain legal positions that make fine distinctions to go right up against what the law allows. The public, however, can't really tell the difference. To them (the subset of them that care at all) the legal distinction between collecting data and collecting metadata or targeting only non-U.S. persons doesn't resonate, and they can't see the difference between what Obama is doing and what Bush was doing.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  What do you think the difference is? I mean isn't it possible that a) Bush and many in his administration believed their professed legal theory that the AUMF allowed surveillance beyond that authorized by FISA so long as it was targeted at Al Qaeda and related groups and b) the programs were so targeted and purely domestic intercepts were screened and destroyed? There's obviously a distinction now that the programs have FISA warrants associated with them, but it's not one I can get too worked up about.
- bradleyland 13y ago
  It seems to me like the distinction between someone who outright lies to you and one who omits the truth. Neither are a quality I want in a President.
- euroclydon 13y ago
  I assume this implies that, in contrast to Bush's actions as described in the article, Obama has 1) asked his AJ to sign authorizations instead of presidential/vice-presidential counsels, 2) provided the NSA with the complete text of authorizations and legal opinions, and if I've followed your posts correctly, 3) produced authorizations/opinions that are not legal contortions.
01Michael10 13y ago
I don't think the issue is he doesn't see the problem but that he has learned is powerless to stop it. People need to realize our democratic system is broken. It's our military and intelligence industrial complexes with the government contacted corporations who benefit from them that really run things.
- magoon 13y ago
  POTUS is far from powerless when it comes to stopping this spying. It's his wheelhouse. The powers of the executive branch are broader than most realize.
  - 01Michael10 13y ago
    If you like to live under that illusion so be it...
    - aclevernickname 13y ago
      Now that you've brought up the subject of illusions, let's discuss some of the bigger illusions we currently agree to en masse: 1) the 30+ year war on drugs, still in effect because the masses believe the illusion that being excessively tough on crime makes for a better society. 2) 12 USC being modified by the Trading With the Enemies Act of 1917 to include "United States Citizen" [1]. 3) House Joint Resolution 192 of June 5th 1933 banning gold and silver as currency, ushering in a bankruptcy with the trimmings of Keynesian Economics [2]. 4) "9/11 changed everything". 5) Most relevant, NSPD-51 pulling all branches of government under the Executive during Bush II [3], and none of us caring. Every one of the above is an illusion; handwaving by bureaucrats, that were integral for bringing us to where we are today. Why do you choose to accept/live by the above illusions? because everyone else is? (Additionally, you may be making an Appeal to Incredulity [4], if you weren't already aware.) [1] http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/95a http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/95a [2] http://www.focusoncommerce.net/index_htm_files/LAW%20-%20House%20Joint%20Resolution%20192.pdf http://www.focusoncommerce.net/index_htm_files/LAW%20-%20Hou... [3] https://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nspd/nspd-51.htm https://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nspd/nspd-51.htm [4] http://www.rationalresponders.com/logical_fallacy_lesson_11_argument_from_personal_incredulity http://www.rationalresponders.com/logical_fallacy_lesson_11_...

by flexie 13y ago

What is even worse is that the next president - who taught constitutional law for more than a decade - cannot see the problem with his government spying on everybody.

rayiner 13y ago

My wife mentioned this in the car yesterday, and I think its apt. Bush was an MBA. He didn't care about the law, he just ignored it. Obama is a JD. He does care about the law, but he's also willing to entertain legal positions that make fine distinctions to go right up against what the law allows. The public, however, can't really tell the difference. To them (the subset of them that care at all) the legal distinction between collecting data and collecting metadata or targeting only non-U.S. persons doesn't resonate, and they can't see the difference between what Obama is doing and what Bush was doing.

twoodfin 13y ago
What do you think the difference is? I mean isn't it possible that a) Bush and many in his administration believed their professed legal theory that the AUMF allowed surveillance beyond that authorized by FISA so long as it was targeted at Al Qaeda and related groups and b) the programs were so targeted and purely domestic intercepts were screened and destroyed? There's obviously a distinction now that the programs have FISA warrants associated with them, but it's not one I can get too worked up about.
bradleyland 13y ago
It seems to me like the distinction between someone who outright lies to you and one who omits the truth. Neither are a quality I want in a President.
euroclydon 13y ago
I assume this implies that, in contrast to Bush's actions as described in the article, Obama has 1) asked his AJ to sign authorizations instead of presidential/vice-presidential counsels, 2) provided the NSA with the complete text of authorizations and legal opinions, and if I've followed your posts correctly, 3) produced authorizations/opinions that are not legal contortions.

01Michael10 13y ago

I don't think the issue is he doesn't see the problem but that he has learned is powerless to stop it. People need to realize our democratic system is broken. It's our military and intelligence industrial complexes with the government contacted corporations who benefit from them that really run things.

magoon 13y ago
POTUS is far from powerless when it comes to stopping this spying. It's his wheelhouse. The powers of the executive branch are broader than most realize.
- 01Michael10 13y ago
  If you like to live under that illusion so be it...
  - aclevernickname 13y ago
    Now that you've brought up the subject of illusions, let's discuss some of the bigger illusions we currently agree to en masse: 1) the 30+ year war on drugs, still in effect because the masses believe the illusion that being excessively tough on crime makes for a better society. 2) 12 USC being modified by the Trading With the Enemies Act of 1917 to include "United States Citizen" [1]. 3) House Joint Resolution 192 of June 5th 1933 banning gold and silver as currency, ushering in a bankruptcy with the trimmings of Keynesian Economics [2]. 4) "9/11 changed everything". 5) Most relevant, NSPD-51 pulling all branches of government under the Executive during Bush II [3], and none of us caring. Every one of the above is an illusion; handwaving by bureaucrats, that were integral for bringing us to where we are today. Why do you choose to accept/live by the above illusions? because everyone else is? (Additionally, you may be making an Appeal to Incredulity [4], if you weren't already aware.) [1] http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/95a http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/95a [2] http://www.focusoncommerce.net/index_htm_files/LAW%20-%20House%20Joint%20Resolution%20192.pdf http://www.focusoncommerce.net/index_htm_files/LAW%20-%20Hou... [3] https://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nspd/nspd-51.htm https://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nspd/nspd-51.htm [4] http://www.rationalresponders.com/logical_fallacy_lesson_11_argument_from_personal_incredulity http://www.rationalresponders.com/logical_fallacy_lesson_11_...