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Yes indeed I have worked on 2 but they were the longest, most un-rewarding experiences I have had. You can read my bio and probably figure out which games. Web,

Yes indeed I have worked on 2 but they were the longest, most un-rewarding experiences I have had. You can read my bio and probably figure out which games. Web, mobile and desktop games have been more fun and had less hurdles and were much cheaper to get launched. No TRCs, SPUs, devkits, rough/costly approvals that were hard to share in a game company and more (we had 3 PS3 and 2 Xbox devkits and lots of developers, so it was a pain point for testing). PSGL/libGCM and an obscured version of OpenGL ES 1.0 is indeed a 'custom opengl' on PS3. And yes XBox360 is stuck on dx9 version. I have to say complaining about custom platforms then backing consoles is a strange vector to be on though. Have you made mobile/web/desktop games after console and really had a harder time? Also, if you were running a small studio which would you develop for considering the entry cost on console runs upwards of 50-100k just to get started? And you need to have a publisher on both platforms that take additional revenues since you won't be able to launch 4+ titles a year to qualify as a publisher on the consoles. My guess is you'd be developing for open markets and platforms like mobile, web and PC. You admit it takes more time, well I have yet to see a console game take less than a year minimum and meanwhile the longest mobile timeline has been 3-4 months. If you have 3-4 years of development would you rather launch 2-3 console games if that or 10-15 mobile/web/desktop titles with same resources? The risk on console games/markets today is immense. Mobile, web and desktop games are extremely more approachable than console development and extremely more affordable (leading to more time spent on gameplay and fun). Even Mark Cerny who designed the PS4 acknowledged this and went with more x86 architecture and shared memory to get rid of the complaints of difficulty when building for the PS3 (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_play...). PS4 will also allow self-publishing which will make it more affordable. XBone, well, they'll support publishers over developers it seems.

pandaman 13y ago
See, GCM is the PS3 graphics API. It replaced PSGL. Before the launch. So you saying "PSGL/libGCM" makes me doubt you have used either. And 360's API is a superset of dx9, no mopre dx9 than the dx11 runtime, which also includes dx9. I have never made a mobile/web game, I've made coupe PC ports and had harder time due to the retarded APIs, insufficient tools and the complete lack of technical support. > Also, if you were running a small studio which would you develop for considering the entry cost on console runs upwards of 50-100k just to get started? It depends on genre. If I'd been making cowclickers - I'd target web, these don't sell really that well on consoles. If I'd been making The Last of Us - guess what? > You admit it takes more time, well I have yet to see a console game take less than a year minimum and meanwhile the longest mobile timeline has been 3-4 months. If you have 3-4 years of development would you rather launch 2-3 console games if that or 10-15 mobile/web/desktop titles with same resources? The risk on console games/markets today is immense. I admit it takes more time to port to PS3 from PC than to 360 from PC. Native development is faster, at least for me. The other question makes little sense. Sounds exactly like "if you could write a book or a 100 tweets, what would you choose?" These are incomparable in my opinion. Also I don't play games that ship in 3-4 months. I don't work on the stuff I don't play. They are probably easier to make than the AAA console titles. If I wanted easy I'd be an "architect", slacking at some big corp. Finally I cannot even imagine how you draw change to x86 architecture from desktop development. Common memory pool is much easier, this is why everybody led on 360 in PS3/360 titles. Has nothing to do with mobile, Mark does not even mention mobile in that interview (or any other).
- drawkbox 13y ago
  >> See, GCM is the PS3 graphics API. It replaced PSGL. Ugh really? PSGL is on top of libGCM. No, you can still use PSGL (higher level) or libGCM (lower level) in PS3, we used the latter as it was recommended. I didn't work directly on the graphics layer, more on gameplay and network but it was a big topic at the studio. You are proving my point on custom graphics libs with your dx9 comments a well. My point on dx9 and yes it is a slightly different version because that is what consoles do, is that it is another change and platform lockin, it also made PC ports worse because you couldn't easily justify the cost of making Dx10 or Dx11 apis and most just used the more easily port of Dx9 games on PC. That is a side effect of console first was my point. I think you are just trolling now. PSGL is a 3D computer graphics API based on OpenGL ES[1] and Nvidia's CG for Sony's PlayStation 3. A previous version of PSGL was available for the PlayStation 2 but was largely unused. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSGL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSGL + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_system_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_system_software + http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=48490 http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=48490 or even a comment from HN News on this outside of me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2315066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2315066 just to name a few. libgcm is lower level and the way most hardcode console games go but it takes lots of tech investment, both part of the same graphic library and PSGL is build on top of libGCM but more like OGL ES. Every console developer had to pick which to use really. The PSGL idea was it was meant to be more consistent with Sony's handhelds as well for easier porting there but most console games are libGCM for graphics libs. Sony also had incomplete software support for utilizing their powerful architecture and SPUs. >>It depends on genre. If I'd been making cowclickers - I'd target web This says alot about your hardcore high horse mentality. Quake live much? http://www.quakelive.com/ http://www.quakelive.com/ or battlefield heroes http://www.battlefieldheroes.com/en/ http://www.battlefieldheroes.com/en/ or http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/02/unreal-engine-3-powered-epic-citadel-now-playable-in-browsers/ http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/02/unreal-engine-3-powered-ep... just to name a few. The web is going to get real with asm.js/emscripten and Unity has made some pretty nice games. Just because you like hardcore doesn't mean all games have to be hardcore. Also games like NOVA, Dead Trigger, Gun Bros, Real Racing 3. and others do show mobile has some hardcore titles. As well as fun titles like Jetpack Joyride, Age of Zombies, Monster Dash that are top notch games with 'pure play' as Carmack puts it. I'll leave you with this from Mark Cerny on the PS4 on the troubles of the last generation of consoles (simplicity was not there, too much time spent on tech): ... That situation led directly to the PS4's design philosophy: "The hope with PlayStation 4 was to have a powerful architecture, but also an architecture that would be a very familiar architecture in many ways." In fact, this is something Cerny returned to again and again during the conversation. "We want to make sure that the hardware is easy to use. And so having the familiar CPU and the familiar GPU definitely makes it easier to use," he said. Later, when asked about whether Sony considers the fact that many third party developers will also have to create versions of their games for the next Xbox, his response was, "when I say that our goal is not to create puzzles that the developers have to solve, that is how we do well in a multi-platform world." http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_play... But we have to agree to disagree, btw what were those PS3 titles you worked on? Didn't see anything in your bio game related and just wondering. I only worked on one Xbox and one PS3 but strongly prefer mobile, web, desktop game development. After Cheyenne Mountain went under I don't like working on games for multiple years not to see a game launch. The open markets seem to allow better liability and more games and don't kill as many companies if there is one failure.

pandaman 13y ago

See, GCM is the PS3 graphics API. It replaced PSGL. Before the launch. So you saying "PSGL/libGCM" makes me doubt you have used either. And 360's API is a superset of dx9, no mopre dx9 than the dx11 runtime, which also includes dx9. I have never made a mobile/web game, I've made coupe PC ports and had harder time due to the retarded APIs, insufficient tools and the complete lack of technical support. > Also, if you were running a small studio which would you develop for considering the entry cost on console runs upwards of 50-100k just to get started? It depends on genre. If I'd been making cowclickers - I'd target web, these don't sell really that well on consoles. If I'd been making The Last of Us - guess what? > You admit it takes more time, well I have yet to see a console game take less than a year minimum and meanwhile the longest mobile timeline has been 3-4 months. If you have 3-4 years of development would you rather launch 2-3 console games if that or 10-15 mobile/web/desktop titles with same resources? The risk on console games/markets today is immense. I admit it takes more time to port to PS3 from PC than to 360 from PC. Native development is faster, at least for me. The other question makes little sense. Sounds exactly like "if you could write a book or a 100 tweets, what would you choose?" These are incomparable in my opinion. Also I don't play games that ship in 3-4 months. I don't work on the stuff I don't play. They are probably easier to make than the AAA console titles. If I wanted easy I'd be an "architect", slacking at some big corp. Finally I cannot even imagine how you draw change to x86 architecture from desktop development. Common memory pool is much easier, this is why everybody led on 360 in PS3/360 titles. Has nothing to do with mobile, Mark does not even mention mobile in that interview (or any other).

drawkbox 13y ago
>> See, GCM is the PS3 graphics API. It replaced PSGL. Ugh really? PSGL is on top of libGCM. No, you can still use PSGL (higher level) or libGCM (lower level) in PS3, we used the latter as it was recommended. I didn't work directly on the graphics layer, more on gameplay and network but it was a big topic at the studio. You are proving my point on custom graphics libs with your dx9 comments a well. My point on dx9 and yes it is a slightly different version because that is what consoles do, is that it is another change and platform lockin, it also made PC ports worse because you couldn't easily justify the cost of making Dx10 or Dx11 apis and most just used the more easily port of Dx9 games on PC. That is a side effect of console first was my point. I think you are just trolling now. PSGL is a 3D computer graphics API based on OpenGL ES[1] and Nvidia's CG for Sony's PlayStation 3. A previous version of PSGL was available for the PlayStation 2 but was largely unused. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSGL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSGL + http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_system_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_system_software + http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=48490 http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=48490 or even a comment from HN News on this outside of me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2315066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2315066 just to name a few. libgcm is lower level and the way most hardcode console games go but it takes lots of tech investment, both part of the same graphic library and PSGL is build on top of libGCM but more like OGL ES. Every console developer had to pick which to use really. The PSGL idea was it was meant to be more consistent with Sony's handhelds as well for easier porting there but most console games are libGCM for graphics libs. Sony also had incomplete software support for utilizing their powerful architecture and SPUs. >>It depends on genre. If I'd been making cowclickers - I'd target web This says alot about your hardcore high horse mentality. Quake live much? http://www.quakelive.com/ http://www.quakelive.com/ or battlefield heroes http://www.battlefieldheroes.com/en/ http://www.battlefieldheroes.com/en/ or http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/02/unreal-engine-3-powered-epic-citadel-now-playable-in-browsers/ http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/02/unreal-engine-3-powered-ep... just to name a few. The web is going to get real with asm.js/emscripten and Unity has made some pretty nice games. Just because you like hardcore doesn't mean all games have to be hardcore. Also games like NOVA, Dead Trigger, Gun Bros, Real Racing 3. and others do show mobile has some hardcore titles. As well as fun titles like Jetpack Joyride, Age of Zombies, Monster Dash that are top notch games with 'pure play' as Carmack puts it. I'll leave you with this from Mark Cerny on the PS4 on the troubles of the last generation of consoles (simplicity was not there, too much time spent on tech): ... That situation led directly to the PS4's design philosophy: "The hope with PlayStation 4 was to have a powerful architecture, but also an architecture that would be a very familiar architecture in many ways." In fact, this is something Cerny returned to again and again during the conversation. "We want to make sure that the hardware is easy to use. And so having the familiar CPU and the familiar GPU definitely makes it easier to use," he said. Later, when asked about whether Sony considers the fact that many third party developers will also have to create versions of their games for the next Xbox, his response was, "when I say that our goal is not to create puzzles that the developers have to solve, that is how we do well in a multi-platform world." http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_play... But we have to agree to disagree, btw what were those PS3 titles you worked on? Didn't see anything in your bio game related and just wondering. I only worked on one Xbox and one PS3 but strongly prefer mobile, web, desktop game development. After Cheyenne Mountain went under I don't like working on games for multiple years not to see a game launch. The open markets seem to allow better liability and more games and don't kill as many companies if there is one failure.