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When it comes to more or less large and real world systems - I really can't imagine how one can work with dynamically typed languages.

by zerr 13y ago

Skinney 13y ago
Why? Static languages ensure type safety (which are uncovered in unit tests anyway) and to ensure this type safety, they need more information from you, the developer. Clojure allows you to write less code which, depending on who you talk to, equals faster development time. Static languages are also usually faster, so I guess the tradeoff stands between raw performance and code size. There are numerous succesfull projects using dynamic languages. Github, as far as I know, uses Ruby.
- happy_dino 13y ago
  > Static languages ensure type safety (which are uncovered in unit tests anyway) Wrong. > ... and to ensure this type safety, they need more information from you, the developer. Wrong. Anyway, correlation != causation. If I would claim that there are some projects which are successful, despite being untyped, I could pretty much use the same data points to make my claim.
  - Skinney 13y ago
    > Wrong. What? Static languages doesn't ensure type safety? Or errors due to wrong use of types doesn't get uncovered in unit tests? Unit tests runs the code, so when it runs code where wrong types or names are a problem, the code will fail, thus uncovered... Doesn't help for code you don't have tests for though, which instead require manual testing. The type system does need more information from the user to allow the same kind of flexibility in a type safe environment. Polymorphism either through interfaces or class inheritance is basically a way to tell the compiler that "Hey, i know these objects look different, but they do support the function/method I'm calling, so relax ok?". When someone says they don't understand the use of dynamically typed languages in a real world setting, it makes sense to mention that a company like GitHub mainly uses a dynamically typed language in their product. Heck, even Facebook uses a dynamically typed language quite extensively in PHP. Yes, you could make the argument that alot of successfull projects use statically typed languages, and naturally they do. The point is that dynamically typed languages work just fine in a real world setting.
    - happy_dino 13y ago
      > What? I disagree with your notion of equating types with tests. They are fundamentally different. Types provide substantially stronger guarantees without having to execute any code. > The type system does need more information from the user to allow the same kind of flexibility in a type safe environment. Did you have a look at Haskell? Or any other language with type inference? The connection you are trying to establish between "untyped == no need to specify types explicitly" and "typed == necessary to specify types explicitly" is patently wrong. Having a helpful compiler doesn't mean that the language has to suck. I don't want to offend you, but your comments create the impression that you are lacking experience with a modern, statically typed language.
      - Skinney 13y ago
        > I disagree with your notion of equating types with tests. They are fundamentally different. Types provide substantially stronger guarantees without having to execute any code. I'm not equating types with tests. I'm saying that type errors comes to light when a unit test for a given code is run, because you will get unexpected results and/or an exception is thrown. > Did you have a look at Haskell? Or any other language with type inference? The connection you are trying to establish between "untyped == no need to specify types explicitly" and "typed == necessary to specify types explicitly" is patently wrong. I started learning Haskell but stopped when I came to monads. I've also experience with other languages that provide type inference like Go and F#. Go requires you to define interfaces (something you don't need in a dynamic language like, say, javascript). Haskell also has features that require the developer declare something upfront (types and type derivation), as do F# (discriminated unions and/or types). My actual example was regarding class inheritance and implementing interfaces. Polymorphisism through inheritance or interfaces is great in a statically typed language, but not required or even possible in certain dynamic languages. > Having a helpful compiler doesn't mean that the language has to suck. I don't want to offend you, but your comments create the impression that you are lacking experience with a modern, statically typed language. I never said statically typed languages suck. I've developed an app in C# which was a great experience, and at my day job I work in C++ (which IMHO is a sucky language, but not due to being statically typed). Haskell is also a great language, as is Go and C#. What I did say is that statically typed languages often require more code, which (depending on who you talk to) slows down development compared to a dynamically typed language. Statically typed languages does however usually entail better performance and (sometimes) smaller memory footprint than dynamically typed languages. There is a tradeoff, but that doesn't make one more suited for real world applications than the other, which there exists numerous examples of.
- zerr 13y ago
  Yes, but when it comes to reading/understanding and refactoring/modifying code - this is where things get complicated.
  - Skinney 13y ago
    Never really had any problems reading/understanding dynamic code, actually I (and this is highly subjective) think it's easier to read dynamic code because you don't need to read a lot of extra code written to satisfy a compiler. I agree completely when it comes to refactoring/modifying code though. This can become cumbersome, especially if you don't have unit tests.
    - zerr 13y ago
      Well, what you call an extra code to help to satisfy a compile, I call a part of a documentation which helps understanding the code, in addition with some static integrity checking :)
      - Skinney 13y ago
        I understand the argument. In my experience though, documentation and/or tests usually always makes type info redundant. But I'm well aware that people have different views on this. Each to his own.
gngeal 13y ago
Hint: lack of imagination is seldom considered a positive trait in creative fields.
- zerr 13y ago
  Engineering requires creativity within constraints. If you're not comfortable with this, you should change a profession.
  - gngeal 13y ago
    That's a tautology (and therefore a waste of words) and you know it.
fhd2 13y ago
Both have their place - as evident from their continued coexistence. I don't see why there are static vs dynamic flamewars. From my experience, dynamic languages are good at doing more with less code, and getting somewhere faster. Stuff written in static languages tends to be more efficient and reliable. I'm happily using both. And the line between static and dynamic languages is a bit blurry anyway.
djpowell 13y ago
A dynamically-typed OO language like Python is very different from a dynamically-typed functional language like Clojure. [1] In a functional language you are mostly passing around fairly pure concepts of data as lists and maps, and transforming and combining data between functions. This data is standalone, and serialisable, and so easy to understand; a REPL-oriented environment means that code gets implemented incrementally, building from some inputs to the required result interactively, so everything gets some testing as it is developed. The static types of this pure data probably wouldn't be very interesting. Compare with SQL - SQL lets you join and transform arbitrary tables using queries. SQL doesn't require you to create up-front static types to accommodate the shapes of the resultsets of queries that are include joins. The Clojure Way has a lot in common with SQL, I find. [1] of course there are plenty of large real world systems written in Python etc.
- happy_dino 13y ago
  > SQL doesn't require you to create up-front static types You realize that DML/DQL is only one part of SQL? It also includes a DDL. All the types are right in there.
  - stonemetal 13y ago
    Try to finish the sentence before deciding it is inaccurate. > resultsets of queries that are include joins. I have never had to use DDL to declare the types of the results of a join. What database do you use where you do?
    - happy_dino 13y ago
      This is because the types can be derived from the ones declared, not because joins are suddenly “dynamically” typed. Static types != manifest types.
  - djpowell 13y ago
    DDL is boring. DML/DQL are the power of SQL and the relational model. They are what enables ad-hoc querying that the schema designer had never considered. As soon as you do anything other than select * the composite types defined in DDL aren't as important. I was suggesting that the immutable part of FP (which is most of it) has a lot of similarity with relational querying, which is very successful in the real world.
pron 13y ago
I used to think that, too, but Clojure is not dynamically typed in the same way Ruby, Python, Javascript or Groovy are. The most important difference, from a maintainability point of view, is dynamic dispatch. All those other languages can call any method on any object. If the object has that method - it runs; if not - something else happens. But other than comparing method names, you have no way of knowing whether method foo in object A is indeed an override of method foo in object B, or whether it does something else altogether. Clojure is entirely different. When you write (f x) you know exactly how f is going to dispatch by looking what f is in f's namespace: either it is a simple function, a protocol method implemented by x (just like interfaces in Java) with the protocol defined in f's namespace, or a multimethod in f's namespace. So in Clojure, you don't have dynamic dispatch at all other than Java-like polymorphism or multimethods whose implementations are confined to a single namespace.
calibraxis 13y ago
Scroll near the bottom of this page, and you'll see types used for safety — not just performance — and there's contracts too: (http://adambard.com/blog/clojure-batteries-included/ http://adambard.com/blog/clojure-batteries-included/) [Disclaimer: I have never used core.typed.]

When it comes to more or less large and real world systems - I really can't imagine how one can work with dynamically typed languages.

by zerr 13y ago

When it comes to more or less large and real world systems - I really can't imagine how one can work with dynamically typed languages.

Skinney 13y ago

Why? Static languages ensure type safety (which are uncovered in unit tests anyway) and to ensure this type safety, they need more information from you, the developer. Clojure allows you to write less code which, depending on who you talk to, equals faster development time. Static languages are also usually faster, so I guess the tradeoff stands between raw performance and code size. There are numerous succesfull projects using dynamic languages. Github, as far as I know, uses Ruby.

happy_dino 13y ago
> Static languages ensure type safety (which are uncovered in unit tests anyway) Wrong. > ... and to ensure this type safety, they need more information from you, the developer. Wrong. Anyway, correlation != causation. If I would claim that there are some projects which are successful, despite being untyped, I could pretty much use the same data points to make my claim.
- Skinney 13y ago
  > Wrong. What? Static languages doesn't ensure type safety? Or errors due to wrong use of types doesn't get uncovered in unit tests? Unit tests runs the code, so when it runs code where wrong types or names are a problem, the code will fail, thus uncovered... Doesn't help for code you don't have tests for though, which instead require manual testing. The type system does need more information from the user to allow the same kind of flexibility in a type safe environment. Polymorphism either through interfaces or class inheritance is basically a way to tell the compiler that "Hey, i know these objects look different, but they do support the function/method I'm calling, so relax ok?". When someone says they don't understand the use of dynamically typed languages in a real world setting, it makes sense to mention that a company like GitHub mainly uses a dynamically typed language in their product. Heck, even Facebook uses a dynamically typed language quite extensively in PHP. Yes, you could make the argument that alot of successfull projects use statically typed languages, and naturally they do. The point is that dynamically typed languages work just fine in a real world setting.
  - happy_dino 13y ago
    > What? I disagree with your notion of equating types with tests. They are fundamentally different. Types provide substantially stronger guarantees without having to execute any code. > The type system does need more information from the user to allow the same kind of flexibility in a type safe environment. Did you have a look at Haskell? Or any other language with type inference? The connection you are trying to establish between "untyped == no need to specify types explicitly" and "typed == necessary to specify types explicitly" is patently wrong. Having a helpful compiler doesn't mean that the language has to suck. I don't want to offend you, but your comments create the impression that you are lacking experience with a modern, statically typed language.
    - Skinney 13y ago
      > I disagree with your notion of equating types with tests. They are fundamentally different. Types provide substantially stronger guarantees without having to execute any code. I'm not equating types with tests. I'm saying that type errors comes to light when a unit test for a given code is run, because you will get unexpected results and/or an exception is thrown. > Did you have a look at Haskell? Or any other language with type inference? The connection you are trying to establish between "untyped == no need to specify types explicitly" and "typed == necessary to specify types explicitly" is patently wrong. I started learning Haskell but stopped when I came to monads. I've also experience with other languages that provide type inference like Go and F#. Go requires you to define interfaces (something you don't need in a dynamic language like, say, javascript). Haskell also has features that require the developer declare something upfront (types and type derivation), as do F# (discriminated unions and/or types). My actual example was regarding class inheritance and implementing interfaces. Polymorphisism through inheritance or interfaces is great in a statically typed language, but not required or even possible in certain dynamic languages. > Having a helpful compiler doesn't mean that the language has to suck. I don't want to offend you, but your comments create the impression that you are lacking experience with a modern, statically typed language. I never said statically typed languages suck. I've developed an app in C# which was a great experience, and at my day job I work in C++ (which IMHO is a sucky language, but not due to being statically typed). Haskell is also a great language, as is Go and C#. What I did say is that statically typed languages often require more code, which (depending on who you talk to) slows down development compared to a dynamically typed language. Statically typed languages does however usually entail better performance and (sometimes) smaller memory footprint than dynamically typed languages. There is a tradeoff, but that doesn't make one more suited for real world applications than the other, which there exists numerous examples of.
zerr 13y ago
Yes, but when it comes to reading/understanding and refactoring/modifying code - this is where things get complicated.
- Skinney 13y ago
  Never really had any problems reading/understanding dynamic code, actually I (and this is highly subjective) think it's easier to read dynamic code because you don't need to read a lot of extra code written to satisfy a compiler. I agree completely when it comes to refactoring/modifying code though. This can become cumbersome, especially if you don't have unit tests.
  - zerr 13y ago
    Well, what you call an extra code to help to satisfy a compile, I call a part of a documentation which helps understanding the code, in addition with some static integrity checking :)
    - Skinney 13y ago
      I understand the argument. In my experience though, documentation and/or tests usually always makes type info redundant. But I'm well aware that people have different views on this. Each to his own.

gngeal 13y ago

Hint: lack of imagination is seldom considered a positive trait in creative fields.

zerr 13y ago
Engineering requires creativity within constraints. If you're not comfortable with this, you should change a profession.
- gngeal 13y ago
  That's a tautology (and therefore a waste of words) and you know it.

fhd2 13y ago

Both have their place - as evident from their continued coexistence. I don't see why there are static vs dynamic flamewars. From my experience, dynamic languages are good at doing more with less code, and getting somewhere faster. Stuff written in static languages tends to be more efficient and reliable. I'm happily using both. And the line between static and dynamic languages is a bit blurry anyway.

djpowell 13y ago

A dynamically-typed OO language like Python is very different from a dynamically-typed functional language like Clojure. [1] In a functional language you are mostly passing around fairly pure concepts of data as lists and maps, and transforming and combining data between functions. This data is standalone, and serialisable, and so easy to understand; a REPL-oriented environment means that code gets implemented incrementally, building from some inputs to the required result interactively, so everything gets some testing as it is developed. The static types of this pure data probably wouldn't be very interesting. Compare with SQL - SQL lets you join and transform arbitrary tables using queries. SQL doesn't require you to create up-front static types to accommodate the shapes of the resultsets of queries that are include joins. The Clojure Way has a lot in common with SQL, I find. [1] of course there are plenty of large real world systems written in Python etc.

happy_dino 13y ago
> SQL doesn't require you to create up-front static types You realize that DML/DQL is only one part of SQL? It also includes a DDL. All the types are right in there.
- stonemetal 13y ago
  Try to finish the sentence before deciding it is inaccurate. > resultsets of queries that are include joins. I have never had to use DDL to declare the types of the results of a join. What database do you use where you do?
  - happy_dino 13y ago
    This is because the types can be derived from the ones declared, not because joins are suddenly “dynamically” typed. Static types != manifest types.
- djpowell 13y ago
  DDL is boring. DML/DQL are the power of SQL and the relational model. They are what enables ad-hoc querying that the schema designer had never considered. As soon as you do anything other than select * the composite types defined in DDL aren't as important. I was suggesting that the immutable part of FP (which is most of it) has a lot of similarity with relational querying, which is very successful in the real world.

pron 13y ago

I used to think that, too, but Clojure is not dynamically typed in the same way Ruby, Python, Javascript or Groovy are. The most important difference, from a maintainability point of view, is dynamic dispatch. All those other languages can call any method on any object. If the object has that method - it runs; if not - something else happens. But other than comparing method names, you have no way of knowing whether method foo in object A is indeed an override of method foo in object B, or whether it does something else altogether. Clojure is entirely different. When you write (f x) you know exactly how f is going to dispatch by looking what f is in f's namespace: either it is a simple function, a protocol method implemented by x (just like interfaces in Java) with the protocol defined in f's namespace, or a multimethod in f's namespace. So in Clojure, you don't have dynamic dispatch at all other than Java-like polymorphism or multimethods whose implementations are confined to a single namespace.

calibraxis 13y ago

Scroll near the bottom of this page, and you'll see types used for safety — not just performance — and there's contracts too: (http://adambard.com/blog/clojure-batteries-included/ http://adambard.com/blog/clojure-batteries-included/) [Disclaimer: I have never used core.typed.]