4 ms·

It looks like "lack of judicially discoverable and manageable standards for resolving it" doesn't apply here. The 4th amendment clearly applies to the question

by Uhhrrr 13y ago

It looks like "lack of judicially discoverable and manageable standards for resolving it" doesn't apply here. The 4th amendment clearly applies to the question of whether the government should be recording your mother's phone calls.

anigbrowl 13y ago
Read Smith v. Maryland and get back to me. The issue of standing is more complex, and lies along a philosophical fault line about the role of the judiciary; I refer you to this law review article for an overview of those issues: http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2069&context=californialawreview&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar_url%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fscholarship.law.berkeley.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D2069%2526context%253Dcalifornialawreview%26sa%3DX%26scisig%3DAAGBfm0dKIhW14rSE2dxTJFizWmc8qmECw%26oi%3Dscholarr#search=%22http%3A%2F%2Fscholarship.law.berkeley.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D2069%26context%3Dcalifornialawreview%22 http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...
- Uhhrrr 13y ago
  For call metadata, the pen register comparison might fly. If they are storing content, as is likely, it won't. The beginning of the article on standing does raise questions I hadn't thought about. How would you decide the penalty for something with the potential for abuse? Just because the NSA is storing the largest ever collection of personal info with potential for blackmail, election skullduggery, stalking, identity theft, etc. doesn't mean that those things would happen. If all their data centers were hit by EMPs tomorrow, there may be no injury. It would seem that when information which would indicate standing is itself concealed, though, that the threshold should be lower. Eh, I'll keep reading.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    I'm thinking of the metadata, yes. I'm not convinced yet about the content allegations, and I suspect (but have not researched) that the point if illegality is when people start listening to them without a warrant rather than when they're merely stored.
    - Uhhrrr 13y ago
      That is certainly what the NSA seems to be claiming, and coincidentally it is the most convenient interpretation for them. But it seems highly bogus to me. Has the RIAA ever worried about whether downloaders actually listened to the contents of EnterSandman.rar? More worrying, the NSA could abuse this by listening to whatever they liked, then getting information by other means, then lying about listening. And we certainly already know that the NSA is capable of lying and willing to do so.

by Uhhrrr 13y ago

anigbrowl 13y ago

Read Smith v. Maryland and get back to me. The issue of standing is more complex, and lies along a philosophical fault line about the role of the judiciary; I refer you to this law review article for an overview of those issues: http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2069&context=californialawreview&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar_url%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fscholarship.law.berkeley.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D2069%2526context%253Dcalifornialawreview%26sa%3DX%26scisig%3DAAGBfm0dKIhW14rSE2dxTJFizWmc8qmECw%26oi%3Dscholarr#search=%22http%3A%2F%2Fscholarship.law.berkeley.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D2069%26context%3Dcalifornialawreview%22 http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...

Uhhrrr 13y ago
For call metadata, the pen register comparison might fly. If they are storing content, as is likely, it won't. The beginning of the article on standing does raise questions I hadn't thought about. How would you decide the penalty for something with the potential for abuse? Just because the NSA is storing the largest ever collection of personal info with potential for blackmail, election skullduggery, stalking, identity theft, etc. doesn't mean that those things would happen. If all their data centers were hit by EMPs tomorrow, there may be no injury. It would seem that when information which would indicate standing is itself concealed, though, that the threshold should be lower. Eh, I'll keep reading.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  I'm thinking of the metadata, yes. I'm not convinced yet about the content allegations, and I suspect (but have not researched) that the point if illegality is when people start listening to them without a warrant rather than when they're merely stored.
  - Uhhrrr 13y ago
    That is certainly what the NSA seems to be claiming, and coincidentally it is the most convenient interpretation for them. But it seems highly bogus to me. Has the RIAA ever worried about whether downloaders actually listened to the contents of EnterSandman.rar? More worrying, the NSA could abuse this by listening to whatever they liked, then getting information by other means, then lying about listening. And we certainly already know that the NSA is capable of lying and willing to do so.