5 ms·

A Dutchman replies: http://www.newmajority.com/ShowScroll.aspx?ID=8a80f624-92a7-4022-acbe-3912b5be0d09 http://www.newmajority.com/ShowScroll.aspx?ID=8a80f624-9

by miked 17y ago

A Dutchman replies: http://www.newmajority.com/ShowScroll.aspx?ID=8a80f624-92a7-4022-acbe-3912b5be0d09 http://www.newmajority.com/ShowScroll.aspx?ID=8a80f624-92a7-... The NYT article doesn't make any mention of the fact that emigration from the Netherlands in 2004 was the highest since 1954. This makes me wonder if things are really as wonderful there as the article claims, although it does a pretty good job of pointing out the pros and cons.

dhoe 17y ago
The article does not mention this fact because it's not true: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=nl&v=27 http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=nl&v=27. The net migration rate merely stopped growing.
- miked 17y ago
  Thanks for the catch. I've corrected it as per below. My source was (my memory of) a statement in a book that I read a while back. From a 2005 article: http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/local_news/why-are-they-all-going-18295.html http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/local_news/why-are-they-all-... "In 2004 almost 50,000 people born in the Netherlands decided to leave and live in a foreign country. Since 1954, the number of emigrants has never been so high. The Dutch economy, with the exception of the early 1980s, has never been so poor since 1954. The Netherlands is undergoing the longest period of stagnation in two generations, according to the latest statistics from the CPB Netherlands Bureau for Economic Policy Analysis."
  - robak 17y ago
    still doing much better than Americans without savings, bankrupt 401k, huge debts, health system for lucky few who can afford it.
- jonas_b 17y ago
  Even if it was true, would that in the case of NL indicate anything in regards to its taxes-welfare state? I thought it was a widely held "fact" that the NL is overcrowded and that dutchmen should try to find their lebensraum elsewhere.
  - eru 17y ago
    Be careful playing with terms like "Lebensraum".
    - jonas_b 17y ago
      You're right, it was probably unnecessary. It's a pity though, cause the metaphorical meaning of living "room" is precisely what I meant.
      - eru 17y ago
        In modern German, Lebensraum is still a perfectly normal word when used as "the place where animals live". But we are very cautious about our history and the history of words. Sometimes bordering on (self-) censorship. So that caution is not necessarily a good thing.
        jonas_b 17y ago
        Habitat might have been the word I was looking for. I agree that one should be careful when using emotionally charged words, but I also think that playful usage might be a way out of the self-censorship that surrounds a great many dreadful historical events. Not just in Germany.
    - philwelch 17y ago
      It's actually fairly astute. The reason "expanding Germany into the territory of neighboring countries we don't like" was so popular to Germans was because Germany (then and probably now) is fairly dense. One of my friends studied in Germany. One of his professors said something like, "Germany has never had enough land. We tried expanding once but it didn't work out so well." It's easy to imagine the Netherlands having the same problem. Of course, emigrating to a less dense country is an easier solution.
      - eru 17y ago
        "Germany" [1] did expand quite successfully eastwards during the Ostsiedlung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung) in the middle-ages. Modern Germany is dense, yes. But guess what: People are migrating en masse from states like Saxony-Anhalt (118 inhabitants/km²) to Baden-Württemberg (301 inhabitants/km²). [1] In quotation marks, because there was no state called Germany back then.
sfk 17y ago
"Dissident voices are ruled out of order and successfully demonized (Pim Fortuyn), killed (Theo van Gogh) or face such severe threats to their security that they are forced to emigrate, as in the case of Somali-born politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who violated the Dutch norms of “consensus” by insisting on publicly discussing female genital mutilation; honor violence; honor killings; and forced marriages." The author conflates many issues here. Most people disagreed with Fortuyn because he was a right-wing populist who managed to form a fringe party that consisted of sorry losers. The guy himself was intelligent, witty and utterly narcissistic. He was like a character in Oscar Wilde's plays who had a bon mot for everything and solutions for nothing. Not the kind of person who should have political power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn
- gaius 17y ago
  Not the kind of person who should have political power. That is up to the voters to decide, no?
- cousin_it 17y ago
  No, the author doesn't conflate anything. Yes, the people mentioned differ in many ways: gender, political views, popular image... But they do have something in common: they vocally attacked Islamic practices and were punished.
  - lucumo 17y ago
    Yes, because the idiotic actions of crazy individuals are totally the responsibility of all people in a society. Have you repented for the murder of JFK, Lincoln and some school personnel in San Diego (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer) yet?
    - cousin_it 17y ago
      I don't know exactly why people downvoted you (I didn't), but guess it's because you attacked factual statements with emotional statements.
rjprins 17y ago
The guy is all for harder sentences, more jail time, etc. Criticizing judges on these matters is like telling experienced programmers they don't code well. They know what works and what doesn't. The numbers about rape and manslaughter are all out of context, we know nothing of the circumstances. And lastly, since when was putting people in jail longer an effective policy against crime? Anyway, what I think the most important issue is that the people in positions of power (1) actually try to do the right thing and (2) that their views on what is right are not too skewed. Both of which are generally true in the Netherlands I believe. Lastly, on conformity as mentioned in the original article: I would not even know what is meant with conformity. True, you will have to conform to store closing-times which is a silly rule that needs to be changed. But there are hardly any social norms, you may be openly gay, atheist or deeply religious and wear whatever you want. Just don't expect to be viewed as sympathetic when you dress ostentatiously (where would you be?). 'lack of inidividual initiative': Why should people be individually be burdened with taking care of social problems, when we have a government in place just for that task?
- jules 17y ago
  > But there are hardly any social norms, you may be openly gay, atheist or deeply religious and wear whatever you want. From what I see on the TV and read in newspapers this is changing.
  - lucumo 17y ago
    Yeah, there's a certain conservative movement growing which is strongly nationalistic, anti-European, against strange cultures and against what is called "The Church of the Left" (progressive, urban, and socialistic political parties). Highly annoying since _everything_ becomes adversarial because of them.
ilitirit 17y ago
I didn't see the point of a good portion of that response because the author kept referring to the past. It was only after 6 paragraphs that he started tackling the current model, and he does that by not only describing the issues surrounding it ambiguously ("fair amount"), but also by using the past as an argument: > I would argue that the economic consensus model in the Netherlands is quite recent in historical terms, and that even today, it contains a fair amount of conflict. > In 1982 the Dutch state... And the 4 paragraphs later he ends with: > These changes are worth noting, but they came about only after extremely difficult struggles that took decades. Some of the social issues he raises are interesting, but overall I feel that this is a poor response.
jules 17y ago
This is ridiculous: > they are forced to emigrate, as in the case of Somali-born politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who violated the Dutch norms of “consensus” by insisting on publicly discussing female genital mutilation; honor violence; honor killings; and forced marriages. She was forced to emigrate because she lied about her past. If she hadn't she wouldn't have been allowed in in the first place.

by miked 17y ago

dhoe 17y ago

The article does not mention this fact because it's not true: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=nl&v=27 http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=nl&v=27. The net migration rate merely stopped growing.

miked 17y ago
Thanks for the catch. I've corrected it as per below. My source was (my memory of) a statement in a book that I read a while back. From a 2005 article: http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/local_news/why-are-they-all-going-18295.html http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/local_news/why-are-they-all-... "In 2004 almost 50,000 people born in the Netherlands decided to leave and live in a foreign country. Since 1954, the number of emigrants has never been so high. The Dutch economy, with the exception of the early 1980s, has never been so poor since 1954. The Netherlands is undergoing the longest period of stagnation in two generations, according to the latest statistics from the CPB Netherlands Bureau for Economic Policy Analysis."
- robak 17y ago
  still doing much better than Americans without savings, bankrupt 401k, huge debts, health system for lucky few who can afford it.
jonas_b 17y ago
Even if it was true, would that in the case of NL indicate anything in regards to its taxes-welfare state? I thought it was a widely held "fact" that the NL is overcrowded and that dutchmen should try to find their lebensraum elsewhere.
- eru 17y ago
  Be careful playing with terms like "Lebensraum".
  - jonas_b 17y ago
    You're right, it was probably unnecessary. It's a pity though, cause the metaphorical meaning of living "room" is precisely what I meant.
    - eru 17y ago
      In modern German, Lebensraum is still a perfectly normal word when used as "the place where animals live". But we are very cautious about our history and the history of words. Sometimes bordering on (self-) censorship. So that caution is not necessarily a good thing.
      - jonas_b 17y ago
        Habitat might have been the word I was looking for. I agree that one should be careful when using emotionally charged words, but I also think that playful usage might be a way out of the self-censorship that surrounds a great many dreadful historical events. Not just in Germany.
  - philwelch 17y ago
    It's actually fairly astute. The reason "expanding Germany into the territory of neighboring countries we don't like" was so popular to Germans was because Germany (then and probably now) is fairly dense. One of my friends studied in Germany. One of his professors said something like, "Germany has never had enough land. We tried expanding once but it didn't work out so well." It's easy to imagine the Netherlands having the same problem. Of course, emigrating to a less dense country is an easier solution.
    - eru 17y ago
      "Germany" [1] did expand quite successfully eastwards during the Ostsiedlung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung) in the middle-ages. Modern Germany is dense, yes. But guess what: People are migrating en masse from states like Saxony-Anhalt (118 inhabitants/km²) to Baden-Württemberg (301 inhabitants/km²). [1] In quotation marks, because there was no state called Germany back then.

sfk 17y ago

"Dissident voices are ruled out of order and successfully demonized (Pim Fortuyn), killed (Theo van Gogh) or face such severe threats to their security that they are forced to emigrate, as in the case of Somali-born politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who violated the Dutch norms of “consensus” by insisting on publicly discussing female genital mutilation; honor violence; honor killings; and forced marriages." The author conflates many issues here. Most people disagreed with Fortuyn because he was a right-wing populist who managed to form a fringe party that consisted of sorry losers. The guy himself was intelligent, witty and utterly narcissistic. He was like a character in Oscar Wilde's plays who had a bon mot for everything and solutions for nothing. Not the kind of person who should have political power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn

gaius 17y ago
Not the kind of person who should have political power. That is up to the voters to decide, no?
cousin_it 17y ago
No, the author doesn't conflate anything. Yes, the people mentioned differ in many ways: gender, political views, popular image... But they do have something in common: they vocally attacked Islamic practices and were punished.
- lucumo 17y ago
  Yes, because the idiotic actions of crazy individuals are totally the responsibility of all people in a society. Have you repented for the murder of JFK, Lincoln and some school personnel in San Diego (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer) yet?
  - cousin_it 17y ago
    I don't know exactly why people downvoted you (I didn't), but guess it's because you attacked factual statements with emotional statements.

rjprins 17y ago

The guy is all for harder sentences, more jail time, etc. Criticizing judges on these matters is like telling experienced programmers they don't code well. They know what works and what doesn't. The numbers about rape and manslaughter are all out of context, we know nothing of the circumstances. And lastly, since when was putting people in jail longer an effective policy against crime? Anyway, what I think the most important issue is that the people in positions of power (1) actually try to do the right thing and (2) that their views on what is right are not too skewed. Both of which are generally true in the Netherlands I believe. Lastly, on conformity as mentioned in the original article: I would not even know what is meant with conformity. True, you will have to conform to store closing-times which is a silly rule that needs to be changed. But there are hardly any social norms, you may be openly gay, atheist or deeply religious and wear whatever you want. Just don't expect to be viewed as sympathetic when you dress ostentatiously (where would you be?). 'lack of inidividual initiative': Why should people be individually be burdened with taking care of social problems, when we have a government in place just for that task?

jules 17y ago
> But there are hardly any social norms, you may be openly gay, atheist or deeply religious and wear whatever you want. From what I see on the TV and read in newspapers this is changing.
- lucumo 17y ago
  Yeah, there's a certain conservative movement growing which is strongly nationalistic, anti-European, against strange cultures and against what is called "The Church of the Left" (progressive, urban, and socialistic political parties). Highly annoying since _everything_ becomes adversarial because of them.

ilitirit 17y ago

I didn't see the point of a good portion of that response because the author kept referring to the past. It was only after 6 paragraphs that he started tackling the current model, and he does that by not only describing the issues surrounding it ambiguously ("fair amount"), but also by using the past as an argument: > I would argue that the economic consensus model in the Netherlands is quite recent in historical terms, and that even today, it contains a fair amount of conflict. > In 1982 the Dutch state... And the 4 paragraphs later he ends with: > These changes are worth noting, but they came about only after extremely difficult struggles that took decades. Some of the social issues he raises are interesting, but overall I feel that this is a poor response.

jules 17y ago

This is ridiculous: > they are forced to emigrate, as in the case of Somali-born politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who violated the Dutch norms of “consensus” by insisting on publicly discussing female genital mutilation; honor violence; honor killings; and forced marriages. She was forced to emigrate because she lied about her past. If she hadn't she wouldn't have been allowed in in the first place.