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In Germany, the data retention law was ruled unconstitutional by the German Constitutional Court on March 2, 2010. Data retention was allowed in general by the

In Germany, the data retention law was ruled unconstitutional by the German Constitutional Court on March 2, 2010. Data retention was allowed in general by the court, but only with significant restrictions. The German government failed to pass a new law which fulfills both the EU data retention directive and the court's restrictions. The EU Commission therefore is currently sueing Germany to implement the EU data retention directive. If the EU Commission prevails, Germany will have to pay 315.036,54 Euro per day as a penalty fee until a proper law is enacted.

kamjam 13y ago
That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.
- sentenza 13y ago
  But the UK opted out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and is not even part of Schengen. I personally, as a German, am much less forgiving towards the UK than towards the US for what has been revealed. The UK is a EU member, which is so much more than just an ally. It is now clear that the UK spies on all continental Europeans, gives that data to the US, and at the same time tries to opt out of the EU cooperation on police and criminal justice. No matter how you turn it, this cannot be interpreted as anything else than a "spit in your face" gesture towards the rest or Europe. We now get the uneasy feeling that the current and past governments of the UK more or less hate us.
  - louthy 13y ago
    I think that's a bit harsh. The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for, so there's a constant mistrust of the overarching nature of the EU bureaucracy from the population at large, which the politicians who want votes reflect (and obviously stir up too). I think this clip from the classic comedy 'Yes, Minister' sums up Europe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI The UK doesn't hate the rest of Europe, but clearly each nation will play its hand for its own political reasons.
    - sentenza 13y ago
      You bring up an interesting point. I very often read that the UK joined for the single market but then afterwards the EU started taking away national sovereignty. I don't quite understand how this view of things is possible. From the very start, when the Coal and Steel Community was created in 1952, loss of national sovereignty was, to a certain degree, built into the system. The primary goal of European cooperation was to take away the ability of European nations to go to war with one another. Also remember the "de fact solidarity" that Robert Schuman spoke of in his famous declaration in 1950: With all the horrors of WW2 fresh in mind, nobody could expect the people of Europe to show solidarity for another, so the framework of Europe must be set up to generate a "de facto solidarity". The whole system should be set up in such a way that the people of Europe cannot _not_ show solidarity. We learned this in school and it seems to be generally accepted by the general populace, at least in the "old" continental Western Europe. If you ask older Germans or French about European integration, they will talk about avoiding war, not about the single market. The only possible explanation I can come up with for the sentiment that the EU was "all about the single market" is that UK voters were horribly misled by their press and politicians at the time of EU accession. Is this plausible? On a side note: I admit that what I wrote about hating Europe was harsh, but we (i.e., me and many others I've spoken to) do feel genuinely betrayed.
      - drucken 13y ago
        "The only possible explanation I can come up with for the sentiment that the EU was "all about the single market" is that UK voters were horribly misled by their press and politicians at the time of EU accession. Is this plausible?" This is the correct interpretation, at least as far as public polls over EU prove time and again in the UK. If you actually combine the different responses to EU surveys, almost everyone in the UK across all factions of life, even today, mostly have interest in remaining in the EU solely for the common market, if that. It is probably not helped by the fact that the most respected or even revered UK political leaders of the last 50 years, i.e. Churchhill and Thatcher, were extremely lukewarm about the EU project. The difference compared to political attitudes of the public on the continent is very stark indeed. Note. As for the European Convention on Human Rights opt-out, that is mostly a UK Conservative government/conservative media issue that they want to force through and they have had very little actual broader public debate or support. Of course, that does not mean that it will not go through eventually regardless, especially when "terrorism" is used to justify just about anything these days...
  - kamjam 13y ago
    I think hate is a very harsh word. But I agree with your sentiments about the UK spying on everyone - esp given EU specific privacy laws and recent cases of EU law against Google, Facebook etc. Pretty disgusting really given all the rhetoric they spew, but EVERYONE has that uneasy feeling now. We've always said the UK gov't were just lap dogs for the US, this just proves it somewhat more. I'm actually surprised more hasn't been made of the UK involvement on this (but I'm currently not in Europe so difficult to gauge the reactions)
  - sk00byd00 13y ago
    I think you are missing the scale of these data collection programmes. For instance, if you are in north Germany, some of your traffic will be routed through Sweden (because of Telia), Sweden has the FRA law[1] and the Titan Traffic Database[2] which means your traffic gets intercepted, stored and handed over to American authorities for analysis. Why aren't you as angry about Sweden doing the same thing to your communications? It was not even a secret matter. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA-law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA-law [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_traffic_database https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_traffic_database
- blumentopf 13y ago
  The situation isn't really better in Germany. The Constitutional Court (and current Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger) is our last, best and only line of defense against the security hardliners in the conservative party (CDU/CSU). Since the ruling of the Constitutional Court, whenever there was some crime, there'd be the predictable knee-jerk reaction by Hans-Peter Uhl (CSU) that it wouldn't have happened if we had data retention. And equally predictable, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger from the liberal democrats (FDP) would say "Nein". There's even a website to look up whether Uhl has called for data retention (hatuhlschonvdsgefordert.de). Federal elections are coming up on September 22 and it's likely that we'll get a grand coalition again (CDU/CSU + SPD). That would mark the end of Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger's tenure as Justice Minister and it would be a boon for the hardliners. Heaven forbid!
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    Good lord, could this actually happen?
- rsynnott 13y ago
  > We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them Er, but this is completely imaginary. The UK has derogations from more of the optional stuff than nearly any other member state, and has a poor record for implementing the mandatory stuff.
- UVB-76 13y ago
  I know it's not strictly related to the matter at hand, but the notion of the EU churning out absurd and illogical directives is largely a construct of the tabloid press. As someone who has had exposure to certain parts of EU human rights law, the coverage of the relevant issues in the British press is disgraceful. Unfortunately, respecting people's human rights is often difficult and costly, thus an easy target for sensationalist headlines.
- rmc 13y ago
  The majority of the British press often lies and misleads about EU law and how much of it the UK implements. The UK actually opts out of various EU things (Schengen, Euro, 48 hr max working week), and often implements the bare minimum of EU law (e.g. Working Time Directive). This idea, that EU-law-in-UK is somehow worse than EU-law-in-France (or -Germany, etc.) is used an excuse to explain why other countries don't want to leave. "Why don't Spain want to leave the EU if it's so bad?" "Oh! Well they don't implement all the laws!!". Unfortunately it's not true. France goes above and beyond the EU minimum (and beyond UK) in many EU-laws (e.g. Working Time Directive).
arrrg 13y ago
Separation of power and democracy at work. This is why, at least within the context of the EU, you cannot say “Germany did this” or “Germany is in favour of that“. When it comes to data retention German politicians don’t have a uniform view. You can’t even say that they are clearly opposed. Most probably want some kind of data retention (but it’s a complex issue that is passionately fought, so this is taking time). On the EU level “Germany” was very much pushing for data retention and a big reason why it passed in the first place (while some other parts of “Germany” were very much against data retention and worked against it on the EU level). It’s wrong and misleading to talk about the EU abstractly – as is frequently done, especially in the media. If decisions are made on the national level all different opposing views are shown in detail and points of contention are discussed at length – but the EU apparently hands down laws like god on Mount Sinai. But that’s very clearly not what happens. The EU has many faults and is far from perfect, but one easy fix for many issues would be better and more thorough media coverage. To me this is also very much a failure of journalism. If no one portrays the conflicts and discussions in the decision making process then that’s very bad. The decision making process has to be scrutinised and the people have to be given a chance to protest. But if the media is unable to do it that just won’t happen. Because the decision making process is on the EU level very much is long-winded and complicated, with dozens of different views on any given topic and many people who have a say. There would be lots to cover.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  Well it looks like the EU is dead wrong in this case and wants to force Germany to spy on its own citizens.

kamjam 13y ago

That's really interesting. We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them (rightfully so IMO, sometimes logic should prevail). I know it's probably not strictly true, but it's things like this which may eventually lead to the disbanding of the EU and such integration of the law.

sentenza 13y ago
But the UK opted out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and is not even part of Schengen. I personally, as a German, am much less forgiving towards the UK than towards the US for what has been revealed. The UK is a EU member, which is so much more than just an ally. It is now clear that the UK spies on all continental Europeans, gives that data to the US, and at the same time tries to opt out of the EU cooperation on police and criminal justice. No matter how you turn it, this cannot be interpreted as anything else than a "spit in your face" gesture towards the rest or Europe. We now get the uneasy feeling that the current and past governments of the UK more or less hate us.
- louthy 13y ago
  I think that's a bit harsh. The UK went into Europe based on the ideals of the common market, what came after isn't what anybody signed up for, so there's a constant mistrust of the overarching nature of the EU bureaucracy from the population at large, which the politicians who want votes reflect (and obviously stir up too). I think this clip from the classic comedy 'Yes, Minister' sums up Europe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI The UK doesn't hate the rest of Europe, but clearly each nation will play its hand for its own political reasons.
  - sentenza 13y ago
    You bring up an interesting point. I very often read that the UK joined for the single market but then afterwards the EU started taking away national sovereignty. I don't quite understand how this view of things is possible. From the very start, when the Coal and Steel Community was created in 1952, loss of national sovereignty was, to a certain degree, built into the system. The primary goal of European cooperation was to take away the ability of European nations to go to war with one another. Also remember the "de fact solidarity" that Robert Schuman spoke of in his famous declaration in 1950: With all the horrors of WW2 fresh in mind, nobody could expect the people of Europe to show solidarity for another, so the framework of Europe must be set up to generate a "de facto solidarity". The whole system should be set up in such a way that the people of Europe cannot _not_ show solidarity. We learned this in school and it seems to be generally accepted by the general populace, at least in the "old" continental Western Europe. If you ask older Germans or French about European integration, they will talk about avoiding war, not about the single market. The only possible explanation I can come up with for the sentiment that the EU was "all about the single market" is that UK voters were horribly misled by their press and politicians at the time of EU accession. Is this plausible? On a side note: I admit that what I wrote about hating Europe was harsh, but we (i.e., me and many others I've spoken to) do feel genuinely betrayed.
    - drucken 13y ago
      "The only possible explanation I can come up with for the sentiment that the EU was "all about the single market" is that UK voters were horribly misled by their press and politicians at the time of EU accession. Is this plausible?" This is the correct interpretation, at least as far as public polls over EU prove time and again in the UK. If you actually combine the different responses to EU surveys, almost everyone in the UK across all factions of life, even today, mostly have interest in remaining in the EU solely for the common market, if that. It is probably not helped by the fact that the most respected or even revered UK political leaders of the last 50 years, i.e. Churchhill and Thatcher, were extremely lukewarm about the EU project. The difference compared to political attitudes of the public on the continent is very stark indeed. Note. As for the European Convention on Human Rights opt-out, that is mostly a UK Conservative government/conservative media issue that they want to force through and they have had very little actual broader public debate or support. Of course, that does not mean that it will not go through eventually regardless, especially when "terrorism" is used to justify just about anything these days...
- kamjam 13y ago
  I think hate is a very harsh word. But I agree with your sentiments about the UK spying on everyone - esp given EU specific privacy laws and recent cases of EU law against Google, Facebook etc. Pretty disgusting really given all the rhetoric they spew, but EVERYONE has that uneasy feeling now. We've always said the UK gov't were just lap dogs for the US, this just proves it somewhat more. I'm actually surprised more hasn't been made of the UK involvement on this (but I'm currently not in Europe so difficult to gauge the reactions)
- sk00byd00 13y ago
  I think you are missing the scale of these data collection programmes. For instance, if you are in north Germany, some of your traffic will be routed through Sweden (because of Telia), Sweden has the FRA law[1] and the Titan Traffic Database[2] which means your traffic gets intercepted, stored and handed over to American authorities for analysis. Why aren't you as angry about Sweden doing the same thing to your communications? It was not even a secret matter. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA-law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA-law [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_traffic_database https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_traffic_database
blumentopf 13y ago
The situation isn't really better in Germany. The Constitutional Court (and current Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger) is our last, best and only line of defense against the security hardliners in the conservative party (CDU/CSU). Since the ruling of the Constitutional Court, whenever there was some crime, there'd be the predictable knee-jerk reaction by Hans-Peter Uhl (CSU) that it wouldn't have happened if we had data retention. And equally predictable, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger from the liberal democrats (FDP) would say "Nein". There's even a website to look up whether Uhl has called for data retention (hatuhlschonvdsgefordert.de). Federal elections are coming up on September 22 and it's likely that we'll get a grand coalition again (CDU/CSU + SPD). That would mark the end of Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger's tenure as Justice Minister and it would be a boon for the hardliners. Heaven forbid!
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  Good lord, could this actually happen?
rsynnott 13y ago
> We (people in the UK) have long been complaining that our Government stringently applies every single EU directive and human rights law but other countries just seem to ignore them Er, but this is completely imaginary. The UK has derogations from more of the optional stuff than nearly any other member state, and has a poor record for implementing the mandatory stuff.
UVB-76 13y ago
I know it's not strictly related to the matter at hand, but the notion of the EU churning out absurd and illogical directives is largely a construct of the tabloid press. As someone who has had exposure to certain parts of EU human rights law, the coverage of the relevant issues in the British press is disgraceful. Unfortunately, respecting people's human rights is often difficult and costly, thus an easy target for sensationalist headlines.
rmc 13y ago
The majority of the British press often lies and misleads about EU law and how much of it the UK implements. The UK actually opts out of various EU things (Schengen, Euro, 48 hr max working week), and often implements the bare minimum of EU law (e.g. Working Time Directive). This idea, that EU-law-in-UK is somehow worse than EU-law-in-France (or -Germany, etc.) is used an excuse to explain why other countries don't want to leave. "Why don't Spain want to leave the EU if it's so bad?" "Oh! Well they don't implement all the laws!!". Unfortunately it's not true. France goes above and beyond the EU minimum (and beyond UK) in many EU-laws (e.g. Working Time Directive).

arrrg 13y ago

Separation of power and democracy at work. This is why, at least within the context of the EU, you cannot say “Germany did this” or “Germany is in favour of that“. When it comes to data retention German politicians don’t have a uniform view. You can’t even say that they are clearly opposed. Most probably want some kind of data retention (but it’s a complex issue that is passionately fought, so this is taking time). On the EU level “Germany” was very much pushing for data retention and a big reason why it passed in the first place (while some other parts of “Germany” were very much against data retention and worked against it on the EU level). It’s wrong and misleading to talk about the EU abstractly – as is frequently done, especially in the media. If decisions are made on the national level all different opposing views are shown in detail and points of contention are discussed at length – but the EU apparently hands down laws like god on Mount Sinai. But that’s very clearly not what happens. The EU has many faults and is far from perfect, but one easy fix for many issues would be better and more thorough media coverage. To me this is also very much a failure of journalism. If no one portrays the conflicts and discussions in the decision making process then that’s very bad. The decision making process has to be scrutinised and the people have to be given a chance to protest. But if the media is unable to do it that just won’t happen. Because the decision making process is on the EU level very much is long-winded and complicated, with dozens of different views on any given topic and many people who have a say. There would be lots to cover.

flyinRyan 13y ago
Well it looks like the EU is dead wrong in this case and wants to force Germany to spy on its own citizens.