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"President Obama says that one healthy consequence of the financial crisis will be that college grads with math skills won’t automatically want to become deriva

by TriinT 17y ago

"President Obama says that one healthy consequence of the financial crisis will be that college grads with math skills won’t automatically want to become derivatives traders. "We want some of them to go into engineering, and we want some of them to be going into computer design", said Obama." I look at my friends who became computer & chip designers. In their early 30s, after 10 years of hard, hard work in the unforgiving hi-tech industry, they are mostly bitter and burnt-out. Technology moves so fast that their skills will soon be quasi-obsolete. They're thinking of embarking on a new career. It's so depressing that some are even considering selling out and getting a stupid MBA... I look at my friend who became traders. Their work is not the most intellectually stimulating ever, but they can enjoy many weekends, they have amassed enough loot that they can take a couple of years off and learn some new skills. They seem happier than my engineer friends. They go to nicer restaurants, "sleep" with hotter women. They surely won't make billions of dollars in some mega-IPO, but they will (on average) live more comfortable lives than my engineer friends. OK, this is just an observation and I won't extrapolate any "universal laws" from this small sample of individuals. Truth be told, the world is run by jackasses. Stop trying to fight it. Unless the incentives change dramatically, smart kids will keep going into finance over engineering. For each, his own...

vaksel 17y ago
and how many techies make a ton of money in that same mega-IPO? Being a techie/entrepreneur is no guarantee of $$
- TriinT 17y ago
  That was the point I was trying to make ;-) There are a few techies who made piles of money, but most have failed, are failing and will keep on failing. The odds of making billions in a mega-IPO aren't much better than winning the lottery, LOL.
  - wlievens 17y ago
    Your LOL ruined an otherwise intelligent post. Can I have my upvote back?
sown 17y ago
I think the president was not quite aware of the words "computer design" meant. He may have just meant software or something else. But I see what you mean and the software side is somewhat similar.
- wlievens 17y ago
  It's not the president's job to know the difference between chip design and software design anyway. He just meant "tech stuff".
gustavo_duarte 17y ago
That's a great point about being _employed_ as an engineer, but the reality you describe is more tied to their 'mode' of work (ie, an employee at a certain type of company) than to the field itself. There are horrible programming gigs out there, but there are also ways to achieve a happy career working in technology. Startups, independent work, searching hard for a good employer, and so on. I have been happy as an indie developer for a few years. I bill hourly so overtime is not a big deal, I have flexible hours, work from home, meet my clients for beer, etc. I think it compares favorably to most finance jobs. The income is a fair bit higher than most salaried positions, though I'm sure some finance gigs pay much more. Maybe one day I'll be in the soup line or in Dilbert hell, but so far it's been a great ride.
- TriinT 17y ago
  There are many ways of making a living as a techie. Working for certain kinds of companies is a sure way of being miserable, that is for sure. Going the other way and trying to become the next Gates / Bezos / Brin, etc is another way of being miserable because the odds are ridiculously slim. However, the area of chip design seems particularly unforgiving. I have seen people burning out very rapidly. Reminds me of that book "The Soul of a New Machine" -- you give your all when you're young, and then you find something else to do with what's left of your life...
  - menloparkbum 17y ago
    I'm not sure why, but it seems like the jobs closer to the metal burn people out quickly. I know maybe a dozen people who worked in chip design and compiler design and by the time they were mid 30s, none of them were doing it anymore. Most of them are now in occupations unrelated to any sort of programming. Three of them did ok, financially, so they are pretty happy. The rest are quite bitter.
    - gustavo_duarte 17y ago
      Other interesting books, in addition to the excellent "Soul", are "Show Stopper!", which covers the development of Windows NT, "Microserfs" (fiction) by Douglas Coupland, and "Proudly Serving My Corporate Masters". These are centered on MS culture, but I think they are representative of the industry at large. NT in particular took a heavy toll, with apparently many divorces and strong burn out in the team. I think it has to do with the culture in many of the firms doing this type of development. Take bright motivated kids out of school, move them close to a corporate campus where they don't know anyone outside of work, work them 70 hours a week, burn out, discard. I'm not saying this is all by an evil design, it might just be the way things work out, but I have seen the bitter results as well. As to the nature of the work itself, I think close-to-the-metal work is a lot of fun. Too bad the work conditions are often rocky. I doubt you'd see the same burn out effect on those in sane work conditions.
miked 17y ago
"We want some of them to go into engineering, and we want some of them to be going into computer design", said Obama." Am I the only person who finds this statement a little, um, concerning? A person might easily spend 5 days a week for a half-century working at a career, not to mention schooling. You'd better like what you're doing, especially in engineering. Is it too much to ask that we be allowed to make this decision for ourselves without our betters in Washington telling us what to do?

by TriinT 17y ago

vaksel 17y ago

and how many techies make a ton of money in that same mega-IPO? Being a techie/entrepreneur is no guarantee of $$

TriinT 17y ago
That was the point I was trying to make ;-) There are a few techies who made piles of money, but most have failed, are failing and will keep on failing. The odds of making billions in a mega-IPO aren't much better than winning the lottery, LOL.
- wlievens 17y ago
  Your LOL ruined an otherwise intelligent post. Can I have my upvote back?

sown 17y ago

I think the president was not quite aware of the words "computer design" meant. He may have just meant software or something else. But I see what you mean and the software side is somewhat similar.

wlievens 17y ago
It's not the president's job to know the difference between chip design and software design anyway. He just meant "tech stuff".

gustavo_duarte 17y ago

That's a great point about being _employed_ as an engineer, but the reality you describe is more tied to their 'mode' of work (ie, an employee at a certain type of company) than to the field itself. There are horrible programming gigs out there, but there are also ways to achieve a happy career working in technology. Startups, independent work, searching hard for a good employer, and so on. I have been happy as an indie developer for a few years. I bill hourly so overtime is not a big deal, I have flexible hours, work from home, meet my clients for beer, etc. I think it compares favorably to most finance jobs. The income is a fair bit higher than most salaried positions, though I'm sure some finance gigs pay much more. Maybe one day I'll be in the soup line or in Dilbert hell, but so far it's been a great ride.

TriinT 17y ago
There are many ways of making a living as a techie. Working for certain kinds of companies is a sure way of being miserable, that is for sure. Going the other way and trying to become the next Gates / Bezos / Brin, etc is another way of being miserable because the odds are ridiculously slim. However, the area of chip design seems particularly unforgiving. I have seen people burning out very rapidly. Reminds me of that book "The Soul of a New Machine" -- you give your all when you're young, and then you find something else to do with what's left of your life...
- menloparkbum 17y ago
  I'm not sure why, but it seems like the jobs closer to the metal burn people out quickly. I know maybe a dozen people who worked in chip design and compiler design and by the time they were mid 30s, none of them were doing it anymore. Most of them are now in occupations unrelated to any sort of programming. Three of them did ok, financially, so they are pretty happy. The rest are quite bitter.
  - gustavo_duarte 17y ago
    Other interesting books, in addition to the excellent "Soul", are "Show Stopper!", which covers the development of Windows NT, "Microserfs" (fiction) by Douglas Coupland, and "Proudly Serving My Corporate Masters". These are centered on MS culture, but I think they are representative of the industry at large. NT in particular took a heavy toll, with apparently many divorces and strong burn out in the team. I think it has to do with the culture in many of the firms doing this type of development. Take bright motivated kids out of school, move them close to a corporate campus where they don't know anyone outside of work, work them 70 hours a week, burn out, discard. I'm not saying this is all by an evil design, it might just be the way things work out, but I have seen the bitter results as well. As to the nature of the work itself, I think close-to-the-metal work is a lot of fun. Too bad the work conditions are often rocky. I doubt you'd see the same burn out effect on those in sane work conditions.

miked 17y ago

"We want some of them to go into engineering, and we want some of them to be going into computer design", said Obama." Am I the only person who finds this statement a little, um, concerning? A person might easily spend 5 days a week for a half-century working at a career, not to mention schooling. You'd better like what you're doing, especially in engineering. Is it too much to ask that we be allowed to make this decision for ourselves without our betters in Washington telling us what to do?