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Most of your argument revolves around comparing different substances, while I made a point specifically about crack, though I will allow heroin in the same cate

Most of your argument revolves around comparing different substances, while I made a point specifically about crack, though I will allow heroin in the same category. Nobody with a little worldly experience would compare crack or heroin with tobacco or even alcohol. We don't have to be all binary about it, "if we ban one addictive substance then they should all be banned!" It's okay to look at things on a case by case basis. I've been as close to hard drugs as you can probably get without actually being an addict. It destroys lives, families and communities, far beyond the addicts themselves, and it happens in a very nefarious way where addicts gradually lose control, without ever intending to go that route. I have seen some of the smartest and most sensible people turn into zombies who would and did sell themselves, their kids' toys and baby's diapers for drugs. This is not the choice they thought they made when they started on drugs. A lot of people aren't capable of making this choice, they can't fathom the consequences, and those consequences affect many others than just themselves. That makes it a societal matter, not just about individual freedom. The fact that underground markets exist with all their associated ills is neither here nor there, this is the case for anything illegal.

eatitraw 13y ago
> I have seen some of the smartest and most sensible people turn into zombies who would and did sell themselves, their kids' toys and baby's diapers for drugs. This is because the prices for drugs are artificially inflated by prohibition. Make drugs legal, or -- at least -- make methadone replacement therapy readily available, and price problem solved.
- sfjailbird 13y ago
  Those things are just an observation about to what extent drugs take over their lives and their self control. That would not change with drugs being legal, it would still be the cause of the destruction of families and communities. A crackhead can't really be a parent or an employee. At the same time there is no guarantee that crime would go away, addicts will still need drugs very badly every day, so unless it was extremely cheap or free (I don't know what the price target would be) they would still need to be out hustling.
  - eightyone 13y ago
    > "That would not change with drugs being legal, it would still be the cause of the destruction of families and communities." The biggest reason why drugs tear apart communities is because they are illegal. Make them legal, give proper information, and let people decide on their own. Open up clinics to treat people and to use as a demonstration as one of the possible dangers if you do harder drugs. Btw, do you think that cannabis, LSD, magic mushrooms, mescaline, and MDMA should be illegal? Do you think we should make Naloxone over the counter and be allowed to be sold everywhere? > At the same time there is no guarantee that crime would go away, addicts will still need drugs very badly every day, so unless it was extremely cheap or free (I don't know what the price target would be) they would still need to be out hustling. There is no guarantee in anything. Portugal has seen crime go down. That's data, baby. Also, when drugs are legal they are way cheaper than they are right now. The biggest reason why they can be expensive is because they are part of a black market which inflates the price artificially. Did you read my link above about how countries are experimenting with giving unadulterated heroin to heroin addicts and are helping treat them? They are seeing very successful results. Once again: People who want to do heroin are already doing heroin. Stop parroting the false notion that people aren't doing drugs. They are.
eightyone 13y ago
> "Most of your argument revolves around comparing different substances, while I made a point specifically about crack, though I will allow heroin in the same category" You're not refuting my comment because it's irrefutable. You can't argue with a decline in overdoses and HIV outbreaks attributed to drug use, so you're trying to shift the conversation. > "Nobody with a little worldly experience would compare crack or heroin with tobacco or even alcohol." That's absolutely ludicrous. Alcohol has killed millions of more people than heroin has and has been just as devastating if not more. If you are saying that we should ban heroin because of it's dangerous properties and alcohol shouldn't be banned that's a mighty big contradiction on your part. I have plenty of "worldly experience", thank you very much. > "It destroys lives, families and communities, far beyond the addicts themselves, and it happens in a very nefarious way where addicts gradually lose control, without ever intending to go that route." If heroin was legal we could remove next to all impurities, make a cheaper product, and have treatment facilities that could both treat addicts who need help and serve as a model for other citizens as the dangers involved if you decide to do a drug such as heroin. People have less of incentive to try to get clean because if they relapse they risk going to prison. > "It destroys lives, families and communities, far beyond the addicts themselves, and it happens in a very nefarious way where addicts gradually lose control, without ever intending to go that route." Yep. Same thing can happen with alcohol. > "I have seen some of the smartest and most sensible people turn into zombies who would and did sell themselves, their kids' toys and baby's diapers for drugs." Wait, I thought making drugs illegal was supposed to keep people from doing them? I know several high-functional members of society that partake in various drugs. You're anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything to me. > "A lot of people aren't capable of making this choice, they can't fathom the consequences, and those consequences affect many others than just themselves." People are already making that choice, as you essentially just said in your last sentence. > "A lot of people aren't capable of making this choice, they can't fathom the consequences, and those consequences affect many others than just themselves. That makes it a societal matter, not just about individual freedom." If drugs were legal it doesn't mean that everyone is going to start doing them. Lowering HIV rates is a societal matter and so is lowering overdoes. So is not tearing families a apart by sending responsible parents to jail because they happen to like a specific drug that happens to be illegal. > "The fact that underground markets exist with all their associated ills is neither here nor there, this is the case for anything illegal." What? How is the fact that there is a multi-billion dollar underground market that is run by the cartels "neither here nor there". People are doing drugs no matter if you like it or not. It's never been easier to get drugs than it is right now. I am a responsible adult and deserve to ingest any god damn substance that I please. You want people like me to go to prison. The drug war is hits the African-American community the hardest, police men aren't going after day traders who do blow. You should really read both the Glenn Greenwald paper I linked above and the book The New Jim Crow. Some people are going to abuse some things and it's none of your business to tell them what they can and can't do with their own body. Sending people to jail over drug offenses doesn't solve any thing. You're lying to yourself if you think that it does. You're argument is full of holes.

eatitraw 13y ago

> I have seen some of the smartest and most sensible people turn into zombies who would and did sell themselves, their kids' toys and baby's diapers for drugs. This is because the prices for drugs are artificially inflated by prohibition. Make drugs legal, or -- at least -- make methadone replacement therapy readily available, and price problem solved.

sfjailbird 13y ago
Those things are just an observation about to what extent drugs take over their lives and their self control. That would not change with drugs being legal, it would still be the cause of the destruction of families and communities. A crackhead can't really be a parent or an employee. At the same time there is no guarantee that crime would go away, addicts will still need drugs very badly every day, so unless it was extremely cheap or free (I don't know what the price target would be) they would still need to be out hustling.
- eightyone 13y ago
  > "That would not change with drugs being legal, it would still be the cause of the destruction of families and communities." The biggest reason why drugs tear apart communities is because they are illegal. Make them legal, give proper information, and let people decide on their own. Open up clinics to treat people and to use as a demonstration as one of the possible dangers if you do harder drugs. Btw, do you think that cannabis, LSD, magic mushrooms, mescaline, and MDMA should be illegal? Do you think we should make Naloxone over the counter and be allowed to be sold everywhere? > At the same time there is no guarantee that crime would go away, addicts will still need drugs very badly every day, so unless it was extremely cheap or free (I don't know what the price target would be) they would still need to be out hustling. There is no guarantee in anything. Portugal has seen crime go down. That's data, baby. Also, when drugs are legal they are way cheaper than they are right now. The biggest reason why they can be expensive is because they are part of a black market which inflates the price artificially. Did you read my link above about how countries are experimenting with giving unadulterated heroin to heroin addicts and are helping treat them? They are seeing very successful results. Once again: People who want to do heroin are already doing heroin. Stop parroting the false notion that people aren't doing drugs. They are.

eightyone 13y ago

> "Most of your argument revolves around comparing different substances, while I made a point specifically about crack, though I will allow heroin in the same category" You're not refuting my comment because it's irrefutable. You can't argue with a decline in overdoses and HIV outbreaks attributed to drug use, so you're trying to shift the conversation. > "Nobody with a little worldly experience would compare crack or heroin with tobacco or even alcohol." That's absolutely ludicrous. Alcohol has killed millions of more people than heroin has and has been just as devastating if not more. If you are saying that we should ban heroin because of it's dangerous properties and alcohol shouldn't be banned that's a mighty big contradiction on your part. I have plenty of "worldly experience", thank you very much. > "It destroys lives, families and communities, far beyond the addicts themselves, and it happens in a very nefarious way where addicts gradually lose control, without ever intending to go that route." If heroin was legal we could remove next to all impurities, make a cheaper product, and have treatment facilities that could both treat addicts who need help and serve as a model for other citizens as the dangers involved if you decide to do a drug such as heroin. People have less of incentive to try to get clean because if they relapse they risk going to prison. > "It destroys lives, families and communities, far beyond the addicts themselves, and it happens in a very nefarious way where addicts gradually lose control, without ever intending to go that route." Yep. Same thing can happen with alcohol. > "I have seen some of the smartest and most sensible people turn into zombies who would and did sell themselves, their kids' toys and baby's diapers for drugs." Wait, I thought making drugs illegal was supposed to keep people from doing them? I know several high-functional members of society that partake in various drugs. You're anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything to me. > "A lot of people aren't capable of making this choice, they can't fathom the consequences, and those consequences affect many others than just themselves." People are already making that choice, as you essentially just said in your last sentence. > "A lot of people aren't capable of making this choice, they can't fathom the consequences, and those consequences affect many others than just themselves. That makes it a societal matter, not just about individual freedom." If drugs were legal it doesn't mean that everyone is going to start doing them. Lowering HIV rates is a societal matter and so is lowering overdoes. So is not tearing families a apart by sending responsible parents to jail because they happen to like a specific drug that happens to be illegal. > "The fact that underground markets exist with all their associated ills is neither here nor there, this is the case for anything illegal." What? How is the fact that there is a multi-billion dollar underground market that is run by the cartels "neither here nor there". People are doing drugs no matter if you like it or not. It's never been easier to get drugs than it is right now. I am a responsible adult and deserve to ingest any god damn substance that I please. You want people like me to go to prison. The drug war is hits the African-American community the hardest, police men aren't going after day traders who do blow. You should really read both the Glenn Greenwald paper I linked above and the book The New Jim Crow. Some people are going to abuse some things and it's none of your business to tell them what they can and can't do with their own body. Sending people to jail over drug offenses doesn't solve any thing. You're lying to yourself if you think that it does. You're argument is full of holes.