4 ms·

Here's an analogy I've heard that makes some sense: The government has been tracking postal letters and packages for decades. They don't open your letters (tha

Here's an analogy I've heard that makes some sense: The government has been tracking postal letters and packages for decades. They don't open your letters (that we know of), but they certainly look at the to and from addresses and keep track of who is sending what. Do you think this is a violation of your fourth amendment rights? Do you have a reasonable expectation to privacy for something you write on the outside of an envelope and drop in a public receptacle? The government is essentially claiming that they're doing the same thing with phone and email records. They're keeping track of who is communicating with who, but not monitoring the contents of the communication for US citizens. (And yeah, whether they are actually monitoring the contents of the communications is now up for debate, but the government's position is still that they don't monitor contents).

john_b 13y ago
This analogy has some flaws. For one, if you write an encrypted letter, the government (at least not to my knowledge) doesn't claim the right to keep it indefinitely just in case you're using it to communicate with your terrorist buddies. You can send letters without return addresses. You don't have to use the recipient's real name when sending a letter. Writing something on the outside of the letter makes it publicly visible, and thus carries no expectation of privacy. Writing an email to your friend is the electronic equivalent of a private one on one conversation, and thus carries an expectation of privacy. If you had wanted the government to know about it, you would have CC'd the NSA. I can see why the government would take this position, as it portrays them in a more favorable light, but it's misdirection more than explanation.
- mpyne 13y ago
  We're talking about phone metadata in this thread, not emails. None of your points seem to pertain to that. It's hard enough to figure out the truth of an issue as it is, without switching the issue in the middle of the discussion.
mikeash 13y ago
Do you have information on this postal tracking program? Obviously the USPS has to know the destination (and purported source), but I wasn't aware of any program to save that information and aggregate it. I'd certainly call the existence of such a program a violation of the 4th amendment, if it's real.

john_b 13y ago

This analogy has some flaws. For one, if you write an encrypted letter, the government (at least not to my knowledge) doesn't claim the right to keep it indefinitely just in case you're using it to communicate with your terrorist buddies. You can send letters without return addresses. You don't have to use the recipient's real name when sending a letter. Writing something on the outside of the letter makes it publicly visible, and thus carries no expectation of privacy. Writing an email to your friend is the electronic equivalent of a private one on one conversation, and thus carries an expectation of privacy. If you had wanted the government to know about it, you would have CC'd the NSA. I can see why the government would take this position, as it portrays them in a more favorable light, but it's misdirection more than explanation.

mpyne 13y ago
We're talking about phone metadata in this thread, not emails. None of your points seem to pertain to that. It's hard enough to figure out the truth of an issue as it is, without switching the issue in the middle of the discussion.

mikeash 13y ago

Do you have information on this postal tracking program? Obviously the USPS has to know the destination (and purported source), but I wasn't aware of any program to save that information and aggregate it. I'd certainly call the existence of such a program a violation of the 4th amendment, if it's real.