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Porn addict, food addict. I don't think negative habitual behavior equals addiction. Not to marginalize people who has problem with porn or food habits, but p

by sebcat 13y ago

Porn addict, food addict. I don't think negative habitual behavior equals addiction. Not to marginalize people who has problem with porn or food habits, but poor self-control and bad habits does not equal addiction in my book. I'm probably wrong definition wise, but I think this stance trivializes real addiction. I mean, yes, dopamine and all that. Reward of negative behavior. But you make your own decisions in life. You're not an insect, you're a conscious human being.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- a_c_s 13y ago
  The theory of 'addictive personality' is no longer a valid scientific explanation of addiction.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
leephillips 13y ago
"But you make your own decisions in life. You're not an insect, you're a conscious human being." Do you regard the human brain as belonging to the physical universe, or somehow apart from it? If the former, where and what is the "you" that is making the decision?
- msg 13y ago
  Obviously there is a can of worms here. Can I just suggest that if you are not a conscious human being who makes choices, but instead, like a billiard ball, are whacked around by the myriad balls and cues you encounter in your meaningless existence, with thoughts caused by minds caused by brains caused by effects chaining back forever... then being swayed by one more argument or not makes zero impact on your status. You remain a mere effect of your circumstances. If you want to pretend to take part in a rational discourse, you should also pretend to be a conscious human being to whom discourse makes a difference and reasons can be better or worse as they conform to reality or not. Your alternatives are limited by the nature of the forum you've chosen.
nsxwolf 13y ago
How do you feel about "nicotine addict"?
- antidaily 13y ago
  Nicotine is as addictive as heroin. Doubt you get physically ill trying to kick porn.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Physical addiction to nicotine is hard to establish and quite weak. It is strongly psychologically addictive. I'm cautious about the new addictions, and I think there's some misunderstanding in sensationalising in pop therapy, but I can see how porn addiction or sex addiction can happen. It's pretty well established that people can be addicted to gambling, and I don't see much difference between that and other non-substance based addictions. Gambling is more well known because it is so well tuned to exploit the addict.
    - DrJokepu 13y ago
      Very true; when I finally quit smoking after a decade of being a heavy smoker I have found that it only took a me few days to get through the physical addiction but it took me months to get over my psychological addiction (e.g. not think of smoking after eating). Adjusting my behaviour was really the hard part and it required a lot of willpower.
      - hamax 13y ago
        Same here. The first 3 days were bad, but nothing special. But now, after almost a year, I'm still fighting with the desire to smoke. In combination with external factors (like stress) I can totally see why people are returning to addiction again and again.
pavs 13y ago
Are you saying that people who are addicted are not conscious of their problem? Most of the time, getting out of addiction takes more than your run-off-the-mill consciousness and self-control.
- sebcat 13y ago
  No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying this article trivializes what I consider to be real addiction.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - gems 13y ago
    Reality: nobody cares what you consider real and fake, and whatever those words mean to you. If you're not examining it in a scientific way, then you have no business making conclusions.
gfosco 13y ago
A little self-control goes a long way, and the words we use with ourselves are very important. We create our own narrative, and unfortunately a lot of people are oblivious to this. Hold yourself to a higher standard, and you can do a lot more than you think.
jerf 13y ago
Arguing definitions isn't very profitable. Addiction is a continuum, and where lines get drawn vary depending on purpose. There's no One True Definition of addiction because there's no One True Purpose for using the term.
- leephillips 13y ago
  "There's no One True Definition of addiction" I was under the impression that the definition used traditionally in medicine is that denial of the addictive substance results in physiological withdrawal symptoms; hence caffeine and heroin are addictive, but cocaine is not. [Edit: wrong about cocaine.]
  - Zimahl 13y ago
    I'll agree but add that any withdrawal symptoms (physiological or psychological) should define addiction. If one quits World of Warcraft but can't stop thinking about it and it interferes with their day-to-day life, that's an addiction.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    That's one definition, but there are others used by medical community. Increasing tolerance is a feature of some definitions. "Drug seeky" and "drug keepy" are other features - people who hide bottles of alcohol around the house, or people who need to find more of the drug when their supplies are running low. Saying that cocaine isn't addictive would be a strange definition of addiction.
    - leephillips 13y ago
      "Saying that cocaine isn't addictive would be a strange definition of addiction." Yes, I was wrong about that, as apparently there are withdrawal symptoms with cocaine.
consonants 13y ago
Recovering opiate addict here, I guess I'd fit your definition of having a "real addiction[sic]". I just want to chime in and say the defining attribute of addiction isn't whether or not something is physically addictive, but whether or not the behavior is negatively impacting your life and you can't stop on your own aka psychological addiction. I've been through opiate withdrawals dozens of times, while I had the urge to use my WANT to be clean was enough to bare the brunt of the pain. Physical withdrawals weren't the reason I relapsed after kicking (as I had obviously returned to a endogenous opioid (receptor) balance), it was the psychological dependence that crept back into my life when I was stressed. It's that pattern of addictive behavior in response to emotions that is the problem, not receptor downregulation and cessation of production endogenous neurotransmitters or what have you. Remember your criteria for addiction doesn't match that of the medical community's, and for good reason.
- Sven7 13y ago
  >it was the psychological dependence that crept back into my life when I was stressed. It's that pattern of addictive behavior in response to emotions that is the problem Very well put. I am no expert in this subject, but it feels to me that the web is taking advantage of this pattern a little too much. I am not just talking about porn, its social networks, video sites, gaming sites, aggregators all of which are being engineered to optimize for engagement.
  - consonants 13y ago
    Definitely, if you want to see an extreme example of it take a look at Tumblr. The echo-chamber nature of the site leads to a positive feedback loop of certain illnesses. In this case I'm thinking of pro-anorexia content of that site being reblogged compulsively and the new content that spawns from such influence is ghastly and viral. Ask any serious WoW player how the game has impacted their life. From what people have told me, the social relations in-game are such that one becomes reliant on a group and vice-versa to advance in the game. Soon those reliances become responsibilities that start to overshadow real life. Some anime is specifically drawn and written to take advantage of the type of person that would obsessively envelope themselves into their favorite anime's branding. Do a google image search for otaku, and you will immediately see the kind of profits people peddling 50 different editions of the same figurine must be raking in. Take a look a bluelight.ru and erowid. The former is a forum for discussion of psychoactives the latter a index of chemicals and experience reports submitted by users. Instead of the harm reduction espoused, it encourages dangerous behavior in the name of 'sharing research'; which is just ingesting what could be a chemical without much human research and just writing about it. One wouldn't be compelled to put themselves in such a position if it wasn't normalized and encouraged by a community that was warped by a pattern of addictive behavior. Grouphug.us is another example. Reddit certainly is as well. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc all provide that supplemental 'reward' of positive human interaction without the human component. Your brain isn't stupid, when actual human interaction doesn't provide the reward you WANT, it will learn where it can get it. Psychological addiction is quite the beast.
dclowd9901 13y ago
There's something empowering about recognizing something as an addiction. It allows you to compartmentalize that behavior, and act on it like you might a disease. Exercise and eating right don't become behaviors you're trying to habitually instill, they become "treatments," that you feel mandated to consume, because to allow the disease to continue is unacceptable.

by sebcat 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

a_c_s 13y ago
The theory of 'addictive personality' is no longer a valid scientific explanation of addiction.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

leephillips 13y ago

"But you make your own decisions in life. You're not an insect, you're a conscious human being." Do you regard the human brain as belonging to the physical universe, or somehow apart from it? If the former, where and what is the "you" that is making the decision?

msg 13y ago
Obviously there is a can of worms here. Can I just suggest that if you are not a conscious human being who makes choices, but instead, like a billiard ball, are whacked around by the myriad balls and cues you encounter in your meaningless existence, with thoughts caused by minds caused by brains caused by effects chaining back forever... then being swayed by one more argument or not makes zero impact on your status. You remain a mere effect of your circumstances. If you want to pretend to take part in a rational discourse, you should also pretend to be a conscious human being to whom discourse makes a difference and reasons can be better or worse as they conform to reality or not. Your alternatives are limited by the nature of the forum you've chosen.

nsxwolf 13y ago

How do you feel about "nicotine addict"?

antidaily 13y ago
Nicotine is as addictive as heroin. Doubt you get physically ill trying to kick porn.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Physical addiction to nicotine is hard to establish and quite weak. It is strongly psychologically addictive. I'm cautious about the new addictions, and I think there's some misunderstanding in sensationalising in pop therapy, but I can see how porn addiction or sex addiction can happen. It's pretty well established that people can be addicted to gambling, and I don't see much difference between that and other non-substance based addictions. Gambling is more well known because it is so well tuned to exploit the addict.
  - DrJokepu 13y ago
    Very true; when I finally quit smoking after a decade of being a heavy smoker I have found that it only took a me few days to get through the physical addiction but it took me months to get over my psychological addiction (e.g. not think of smoking after eating). Adjusting my behaviour was really the hard part and it required a lot of willpower.
    - hamax 13y ago
      Same here. The first 3 days were bad, but nothing special. But now, after almost a year, I'm still fighting with the desire to smoke. In combination with external factors (like stress) I can totally see why people are returning to addiction again and again.

pavs 13y ago

Are you saying that people who are addicted are not conscious of their problem? Most of the time, getting out of addiction takes more than your run-off-the-mill consciousness and self-control.

sebcat 13y ago
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying this article trivializes what I consider to be real addiction.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- gems 13y ago
  Reality: nobody cares what you consider real and fake, and whatever those words mean to you. If you're not examining it in a scientific way, then you have no business making conclusions.

gfosco 13y ago

A little self-control goes a long way, and the words we use with ourselves are very important. We create our own narrative, and unfortunately a lot of people are oblivious to this. Hold yourself to a higher standard, and you can do a lot more than you think.

jerf 13y ago

Arguing definitions isn't very profitable. Addiction is a continuum, and where lines get drawn vary depending on purpose. There's no One True Definition of addiction because there's no One True Purpose for using the term.

leephillips 13y ago
"There's no One True Definition of addiction" I was under the impression that the definition used traditionally in medicine is that denial of the addictive substance results in physiological withdrawal symptoms; hence caffeine and heroin are addictive, but cocaine is not. [Edit: wrong about cocaine.]
- Zimahl 13y ago
  I'll agree but add that any withdrawal symptoms (physiological or psychological) should define addiction. If one quits World of Warcraft but can't stop thinking about it and it interferes with their day-to-day life, that's an addiction.
- DanBC 13y ago
  That's one definition, but there are others used by medical community. Increasing tolerance is a feature of some definitions. "Drug seeky" and "drug keepy" are other features - people who hide bottles of alcohol around the house, or people who need to find more of the drug when their supplies are running low. Saying that cocaine isn't addictive would be a strange definition of addiction.
  - leephillips 13y ago
    "Saying that cocaine isn't addictive would be a strange definition of addiction." Yes, I was wrong about that, as apparently there are withdrawal symptoms with cocaine.

consonants 13y ago

Recovering opiate addict here, I guess I'd fit your definition of having a "real addiction[sic]". I just want to chime in and say the defining attribute of addiction isn't whether or not something is physically addictive, but whether or not the behavior is negatively impacting your life and you can't stop on your own aka psychological addiction. I've been through opiate withdrawals dozens of times, while I had the urge to use my WANT to be clean was enough to bare the brunt of the pain. Physical withdrawals weren't the reason I relapsed after kicking (as I had obviously returned to a endogenous opioid (receptor) balance), it was the psychological dependence that crept back into my life when I was stressed. It's that pattern of addictive behavior in response to emotions that is the problem, not receptor downregulation and cessation of production endogenous neurotransmitters or what have you. Remember your criteria for addiction doesn't match that of the medical community's, and for good reason.

Sven7 13y ago
>it was the psychological dependence that crept back into my life when I was stressed. It's that pattern of addictive behavior in response to emotions that is the problem Very well put. I am no expert in this subject, but it feels to me that the web is taking advantage of this pattern a little too much. I am not just talking about porn, its social networks, video sites, gaming sites, aggregators all of which are being engineered to optimize for engagement.
- consonants 13y ago
  Definitely, if you want to see an extreme example of it take a look at Tumblr. The echo-chamber nature of the site leads to a positive feedback loop of certain illnesses. In this case I'm thinking of pro-anorexia content of that site being reblogged compulsively and the new content that spawns from such influence is ghastly and viral. Ask any serious WoW player how the game has impacted their life. From what people have told me, the social relations in-game are such that one becomes reliant on a group and vice-versa to advance in the game. Soon those reliances become responsibilities that start to overshadow real life. Some anime is specifically drawn and written to take advantage of the type of person that would obsessively envelope themselves into their favorite anime's branding. Do a google image search for otaku, and you will immediately see the kind of profits people peddling 50 different editions of the same figurine must be raking in. Take a look a bluelight.ru and erowid. The former is a forum for discussion of psychoactives the latter a index of chemicals and experience reports submitted by users. Instead of the harm reduction espoused, it encourages dangerous behavior in the name of 'sharing research'; which is just ingesting what could be a chemical without much human research and just writing about it. One wouldn't be compelled to put themselves in such a position if it wasn't normalized and encouraged by a community that was warped by a pattern of addictive behavior. Grouphug.us is another example. Reddit certainly is as well. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc all provide that supplemental 'reward' of positive human interaction without the human component. Your brain isn't stupid, when actual human interaction doesn't provide the reward you WANT, it will learn where it can get it. Psychological addiction is quite the beast.

dclowd9901 13y ago

There's something empowering about recognizing something as an addiction. It allows you to compartmentalize that behavior, and act on it like you might a disease. Exercise and eating right don't become behaviors you're trying to habitually instill, they become "treatments," that you feel mandated to consume, because to allow the disease to continue is unacceptable.