4 ms·

Related: a presentation by DARPA about car cyberattacks http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3D6jxBDy8k8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=

by nthitz 13y ago

Related: a presentation by DARPA about car cyberattacks http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3D6jxBDy8k8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3D6jx...

tlrobinson 13y ago
NYTimes article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/business/10hack.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/business/10hack.html?_r=0 Richard Clarke says it's possible: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/michael-hastings-car-hacked_n_3492339.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/michael-hastings-ca...
- quackerhacker 13y ago
  This is one of the reasons I can see Google Glass becoming more prevalent...security of one's well being through live streaming...even though I'm concerned about privacy, sometimes security through obscurity is not viable.
  - enupten 13y ago
    Yes give the regime more eyes, why don't you.
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    It would work the same way police car cameras work now: if it caught the government breaking the law the footage would simply get lost somehow. If you stream it to some service, the PRISM group would see it and force the site to remove it.
- chaz 13y ago
  I spent a few min reading the referenced paper, and they do seem to demonstrate that there's the possibility of electronically compromising car electronics, including brakes. However, steering and brakes are mechanical systems in Hastings' 2013 Mercedes C250 (like almost every other car), and cannot be electronically overridden. The steering wheel is connected directly to the wheels, and can't be controlled by the electronics. Electronics can activate the brakes, but can't cause the brakes to not activate because the pedal is connected hydraulically to the calipers. Even if the engine is racing, braking force is greater than the engine's force. [2] If his car was vulnerable, all-electronic attack doesn't seem like a good way to assassinate someone if they can simply step on the brakes to stop the car. Changing the mechanics to allow remote control might be possible, but that's a lot of physical evidence to add to the car. [1] http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf [2] http://www.keacher.com/672/title-fight-brakes-versus-engine/ http://www.keacher.com/672/title-fight-brakes-versus-engine/
  - cschmidt 13y ago
    This Nova Science Now episode gives a demonstration where Prof. Yoshi Kohno of the University of Washington hacks a car and remotely slams on the breaks.... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/can-science-stop-crime.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/can-science-stop-crime.htm... Quite a nice segment.
  - dsl 13y ago
    The Mercedes C250 (like almost all cars) has anti-lock brakes. The hydraulic (as you refer to them 'mechanical') brake cylinders are controlled by one of the cars ECUs based on data from the brake pedal, emergency brake, and rotational sensors on each wheel hub. Everything in newer model cars is connected to the CAN bus (basically a broadcast serial protocol), radio, airbags, brakes, etc. Your XM Satellite Radio could in theory detect that you are traveling over 70 mph and trigger just the right front brake cylinder. Any time you detect braking on other wheels, fire one of the 9 drivers side airbags to disrupt the operator.
    - Amadou 13y ago
      The C250 definitely has an option that can sort of steer just by application of the brakes on individual wheels like you described. Their marketing name for it is "active lane keeping assist." http://www4.mercedes-benz.com/manual-cars/ba/cars/w166/en/overview/fahrsysteme8.html http://www4.mercedes-benz.com/manual-cars/ba/cars/w166/en/ov...
    - chaz 13y ago
      Agree with everything you said as possibilities. There are clear proofs of concept that an accident can be caused by a compromised electronics, and multiple ways to do it. We can come up with endless possibilities, but I was trying to establish likely vs unlikely. In his particular case, an attacker would require Hastings to be traveling at a high rate of speed to have a high probability of a fatal injury. Highland Ave is a 35 mph surface street. So the attacker would either need to speed the car up, or have him already traveling at a high rate of speed. If it's the former, Hastings could have just used the brakes. If it's the latter, there are lots of reasons why he could crash on a two-lane city street lined with trees and parked cars at 4 am. As you point out, it's possible a sophisticated attack could have also provided all kinds of distractions to prevent him from braking effectively. I think the most likely explanation was that he was speeding and lost control, but feel free to disagree.

by nthitz 13y ago

Related: a presentation by DARPA about car cyberattacks http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3D6jxBDy8k8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3D6jx...

tlrobinson 13y ago

NYTimes article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/business/10hack.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/business/10hack.html?_r=0 Richard Clarke says it's possible: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/michael-hastings-car-hacked_n_3492339.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/michael-hastings-ca...

quackerhacker 13y ago
This is one of the reasons I can see Google Glass becoming more prevalent...security of one's well being through live streaming...even though I'm concerned about privacy, sometimes security through obscurity is not viable.
- enupten 13y ago
  Yes give the regime more eyes, why don't you.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  It would work the same way police car cameras work now: if it caught the government breaking the law the footage would simply get lost somehow. If you stream it to some service, the PRISM group would see it and force the site to remove it.
chaz 13y ago
I spent a few min reading the referenced paper, and they do seem to demonstrate that there's the possibility of electronically compromising car electronics, including brakes. However, steering and brakes are mechanical systems in Hastings' 2013 Mercedes C250 (like almost every other car), and cannot be electronically overridden. The steering wheel is connected directly to the wheels, and can't be controlled by the electronics. Electronics can activate the brakes, but can't cause the brakes to not activate because the pedal is connected hydraulically to the calipers. Even if the engine is racing, braking force is greater than the engine's force. [2] If his car was vulnerable, all-electronic attack doesn't seem like a good way to assassinate someone if they can simply step on the brakes to stop the car. Changing the mechanics to allow remote control might be possible, but that's a lot of physical evidence to add to the car. [1] http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf [2] http://www.keacher.com/672/title-fight-brakes-versus-engine/ http://www.keacher.com/672/title-fight-brakes-versus-engine/
- cschmidt 13y ago
  This Nova Science Now episode gives a demonstration where Prof. Yoshi Kohno of the University of Washington hacks a car and remotely slams on the breaks.... http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/can-science-stop-crime.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/can-science-stop-crime.htm... Quite a nice segment.
- dsl 13y ago
  The Mercedes C250 (like almost all cars) has anti-lock brakes. The hydraulic (as you refer to them 'mechanical') brake cylinders are controlled by one of the cars ECUs based on data from the brake pedal, emergency brake, and rotational sensors on each wheel hub. Everything in newer model cars is connected to the CAN bus (basically a broadcast serial protocol), radio, airbags, brakes, etc. Your XM Satellite Radio could in theory detect that you are traveling over 70 mph and trigger just the right front brake cylinder. Any time you detect braking on other wheels, fire one of the 9 drivers side airbags to disrupt the operator.
  - Amadou 13y ago
    The C250 definitely has an option that can sort of steer just by application of the brakes on individual wheels like you described. Their marketing name for it is "active lane keeping assist." http://www4.mercedes-benz.com/manual-cars/ba/cars/w166/en/overview/fahrsysteme8.html http://www4.mercedes-benz.com/manual-cars/ba/cars/w166/en/ov...
  - chaz 13y ago
    Agree with everything you said as possibilities. There are clear proofs of concept that an accident can be caused by a compromised electronics, and multiple ways to do it. We can come up with endless possibilities, but I was trying to establish likely vs unlikely. In his particular case, an attacker would require Hastings to be traveling at a high rate of speed to have a high probability of a fatal injury. Highland Ave is a 35 mph surface street. So the attacker would either need to speed the car up, or have him already traveling at a high rate of speed. If it's the former, Hastings could have just used the brakes. If it's the latter, there are lots of reasons why he could crash on a two-lane city street lined with trees and parked cars at 4 am. As you point out, it's possible a sophisticated attack could have also provided all kinds of distractions to prevent him from braking effectively. I think the most likely explanation was that he was speeding and lost control, but feel free to disagree.