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Is it that hard to separate 'I like' from 'is good'? Wine flavors are often described as citrusy or fruity. What happens if you didn't like citrus, and drank

Is it that hard to separate 'I like' from 'is good'? Wine flavors are often described as citrusy or fruity. What happens if you didn't like citrus, and drank a wine that had a very good but Citrus flavor. You would not like the wine but it wouldn't be crap. Or going the other way if you like Twinkies you shouldn't be under the impression that they are a culinary delicacy.

TillE 13y ago
> Is it that hard to separate 'I like' from 'is good'? This is a trend I've noticed particularly on Reddit, but it's probably growing elsewhere too. As if everything is purely subjective, and we cannot talk about objective quality at all. It's a childish view being literally unable to look beyond "I like it", and it's anti-intellectual bullshit, a total rejection of the value of expertise and experience.
- ctdonath 13y ago
  It's a childish view being literally unable to look beyond "I like it", and it's anti-intellectual bullshit, a total rejection of the value of expertise and experience. This. Well said. Worth repeating. What I've struggled with in this thread is how to explain such value to those holding the view. "I can't" just doesn't cut it for me; I deeply want to share the pleasures of fine wines, coffee, sushi, steak, etc. ... but it's strange to face a perspective that denies something, and does so in a way which seems to beg me to beat it into them.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  There is a difference between talk of objective qualities of an object, and talk of if it is "good". "Good" is the language of opinion, and is inherently a subjective matter. If you want to speak about qualities like "it is exactly as its maker intended it to be" or critical acclaim, then there is less presuming language that you can use to do that. I think that the failure to realize this accounts for a large part of why people talk of 'wine "snobs"' or 'movie "snobs"'.
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    I think experts are more able to talk about objective features, but they get labeled as snobs when they proclaim that they've grown out of their initial subjectivity. ("Anyone with good taste will find this collection of features to be good and that collection to be bad; anyone else doesn't know what they are talking about.") When really all that's happened is their ability to articulate preferences and domain knowledge has developed. It's like adults looking down on childish behavior or something.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      Yes, I think that is fair to say.
jlgreco 13y ago
I object to the word "good". If you want to say that something is well regarded, expertly crafted, or even critically acclaimed, then say that. Would you object to somebody saying "The Godfather Part II was not that good" on the grounds that it was critically acclaimed? I think surely not.

TillE 13y ago

> Is it that hard to separate 'I like' from 'is good'? This is a trend I've noticed particularly on Reddit, but it's probably growing elsewhere too. As if everything is purely subjective, and we cannot talk about objective quality at all. It's a childish view being literally unable to look beyond "I like it", and it's anti-intellectual bullshit, a total rejection of the value of expertise and experience.

ctdonath 13y ago
It's a childish view being literally unable to look beyond "I like it", and it's anti-intellectual bullshit, a total rejection of the value of expertise and experience. This. Well said. Worth repeating. What I've struggled with in this thread is how to explain such value to those holding the view. "I can't" just doesn't cut it for me; I deeply want to share the pleasures of fine wines, coffee, sushi, steak, etc. ... but it's strange to face a perspective that denies something, and does so in a way which seems to beg me to beat it into them.
jlgreco 13y ago
There is a difference between talk of objective qualities of an object, and talk of if it is "good". "Good" is the language of opinion, and is inherently a subjective matter. If you want to speak about qualities like "it is exactly as its maker intended it to be" or critical acclaim, then there is less presuming language that you can use to do that. I think that the failure to realize this accounts for a large part of why people talk of 'wine "snobs"' or 'movie "snobs"'.
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  I think experts are more able to talk about objective features, but they get labeled as snobs when they proclaim that they've grown out of their initial subjectivity. ("Anyone with good taste will find this collection of features to be good and that collection to be bad; anyone else doesn't know what they are talking about.") When really all that's happened is their ability to articulate preferences and domain knowledge has developed. It's like adults looking down on childish behavior or something.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Yes, I think that is fair to say.

jlgreco 13y ago

I object to the word "good". If you want to say that something is well regarded, expertly crafted, or even critically acclaimed, then say that. Would you object to somebody saying "The Godfather Part II was not that good" on the grounds that it was critically acclaimed? I think surely not.