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"According to the government, Snowden is a traitor. According to many frequent HN readers, the government is completely out of the control. Neither of these cla

by D9u 13y ago

"According to the government, Snowden is a traitor. According to many frequent HN readers, the government is completely out of the control. Neither of these claims is true..." Ummm, I'm not sure if you are an American, or not, but those of us who believe in the US Constitution, as well as its Bill of Rights, know that the words contained therein are the only thing stopping our government from becoming another East Germany/North Korea style police state. The 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America plainly lays out the right of the people to be secure in their persons, papers, and effects (the communications media of the era,) and it also spells out the requirements which the government must meet in order to breach that right to privacy. The current domestic surveillance program fails to meet these requirements on many levels. Perhaps you don't find the abrogation of our Bill of Rights to be evidence of a government gone "completely out of the control." but a vast number of "We the People" are outraged at a great many of the acts being done in our name, without our consent. Secret courts, secret judges, secret police, secret wars, secret torture... Does any of that sound familiar? The terrorism excuse is flimsy at best, especially in light of the fact that exponentially fewer Americans are harmed by terrorist acts than are killed by drunk driving on an annual basis. Prescription drugs kill more Americans each year than all of the terrorist acts in the last 10 years combined. It seems that those who would choose to marginalize the fact that our government has overstepped its mandate would rather shun the intent of the very Bill of Rights which made America the beacon of freedom and liberty for all. History has a way of repeating itself, and those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. This "silly little game" is neither silly, nor little, this issue deals with an attack upon our Bill of Rights, which so many have fought and died for.

Arnor 13y ago
You've quoted me egregiously out of context. "silly little game" (not even verbatim) came from this sentence: >I'm saying that this is important and meaningful and needs to be treated as such rather than another opportunity to win points in some silly political game. You left out the "important and meaningful" part and the "treated as such" part. What I refer to as a silly game is the attempt to wrack up points for one side or the other rather than taking the debate seriously and analyzing it in a sober manner. As I've said before. I'm very critical of these programs. But rather than contorting my mind through anger into assuming the NSA is the Third Reich, I try to take a step back. To your point on the 4th Amendment. I agree that there is probably a violation there. I hope that there will come a time when the conversation about these programs is honest and sober enough to analyze these programs with the appropriate care. Like several others, you've mistaken my reluctance to jump on your angry bandwagon as opposition. Far from it. At a gut level, I agree with most everything you've said here. Still, it's harmful to the public debate because it is hasty and hyperbolic.
- D9u 13y ago
  My apologies for taking words out of context (I swear you must have edited) but this imagined attempt of mine to allegedly "wrack up points" is actually an attempt on my part to not let this issue die while the heart of the matter remains. There is no question that the wholesale eavesdropping by the government and its agents upon innocent Americans is an "egregious" violation of the 4th Amendment. Spying on Americans was no good when Hoover did it, it was no good when Nixon did it, and it is still no good today. To add insult to injury our non-elected bureaucrats have repeatedly lied to us regarding the spying because they know that what they are doing is wrong. I cannot sit idly by when my nation has delved into being a police state worthy of the term "Orwellian." There is nothing "hasty and hyperbolic" about calling a spade a spade.

by D9u 13y ago

Arnor 13y ago

You've quoted me egregiously out of context. "silly little game" (not even verbatim) came from this sentence: >I'm saying that this is important and meaningful and needs to be treated as such rather than another opportunity to win points in some silly political game. You left out the "important and meaningful" part and the "treated as such" part. What I refer to as a silly game is the attempt to wrack up points for one side or the other rather than taking the debate seriously and analyzing it in a sober manner. As I've said before. I'm very critical of these programs. But rather than contorting my mind through anger into assuming the NSA is the Third Reich, I try to take a step back. To your point on the 4th Amendment. I agree that there is probably a violation there. I hope that there will come a time when the conversation about these programs is honest and sober enough to analyze these programs with the appropriate care. Like several others, you've mistaken my reluctance to jump on your angry bandwagon as opposition. Far from it. At a gut level, I agree with most everything you've said here. Still, it's harmful to the public debate because it is hasty and hyperbolic.

D9u 13y ago
My apologies for taking words out of context (I swear you must have edited) but this imagined attempt of mine to allegedly "wrack up points" is actually an attempt on my part to not let this issue die while the heart of the matter remains. There is no question that the wholesale eavesdropping by the government and its agents upon innocent Americans is an "egregious" violation of the 4th Amendment. Spying on Americans was no good when Hoover did it, it was no good when Nixon did it, and it is still no good today. To add insult to injury our non-elected bureaucrats have repeatedly lied to us regarding the spying because they know that what they are doing is wrong. I cannot sit idly by when my nation has delved into being a police state worthy of the term "Orwellian." There is nothing "hasty and hyperbolic" about calling a spade a spade.