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Edward Snowden has not entered Russia - Sergei Lavrov
- lignuist 13y agoThis is pretty entertaining. The US government meanwhile disgraced itself by accusing China and Russia of unlawful behavior.
- rb2e 13y agoIt is pretty much becoming something out of a Tom Clancy novel. You could easily imagine a situation room like you see in many a Hollywood movie tracking him. Though Hollywood, this is not.
- ealexhudson 13y agoYou say it's not Hollywood - maybe Snowden will end up like the guy in "The Terminal", unable to enter Russia but unable to leave the airport....
- rb2e 13y agoMy guess is, he was put into a waiting car owned by a foreign government and whisked away somewhere or taken to another waiting plane and 'smuggled' out. But this has been planned with pinpoint precision and I expect there is a lot of 'back channel' negotiation/diplomacy being carried for safe channel to fly him to Ecuador or wherever. He will probably only turn up officially when he is out of arm's reach of the USA.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- Sven7 13y ago"Pinpoint precision" gives the governments of the world too much credit. Reacting to developments on the fly is not exactly a strength. There was a (Reuters?) article yesterday that said the Ambassador of Ecuador arrived at the airport and asked the press where Snowden was...and I am expecting thats the kind of stuff that is mostly going on.
- coopdog 13y agoIt'd be interesting to know how those back channel communications occurred one day. One can only assume the NSA would be putting every scrap of their attention on monitoring anyone even remotely connected to Snowden.
- arethuza 13y ago"It is pretty much becoming something out of a Tom Clancy novel" In a Tom Clancy novel wouldn't the Russian/Chinese spy be fleeing to the United States?
- yardie 13y agoImagine? They actually have operation centers modeled after Hollywood movies. Complete with mood-lighting, wall-size monitors and trendy, ergonomic desks.
- junto 13y ago"So Komrade Snowden. We are the FSA. You can talk to us willingly, or talk to this rubber hose... or you can go to the US Embassy for protection. Muhahahahaha"
- narag 13y agoIf it turns out neither China, Cuba nor Russia stop, threathen or interrogate Snowden, the comparison leaves USA in a very bad place.
- Svip 13y agoSo when is the movie coming out?
- deletes 13y agoAsk the NSA.
- jmtame 13y agoIn other words, just text/e-mail/call/talk quietly to yourself. (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist the jab, and I fully accept all down votes that come to me on this one)
- deletes 13y agoDon't forget to add a some specific keywords to the question.
- arethuza 13y agoOn the subject of adding random "interesting" keywords - Emacs has had "spook mode" for a long time: http://www.cypherspace.org/rsa/spook.html http://www.cypherspace.org/rsa/spook.html It inserts some random "interesting" keywords into the buffer. I wonder if there could be a web version of this - that adds form fields/headers filled with "interesting" keywords - might break some applications though.
- cclogg 13y agoI hear Denzel is in talks to star as Snowden.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- nodata 13y agoIt doesn't even sound the same.
- ohwp 13y agoIf the information he has is very valuable it's not only the US he should be running from.
- rdl 13y agoRight, he's in the international transit area, so not officially "in Russia", despite being within Russian territory. (There was that stupid movie The Terminal with Tom Hanks which might be relevant here...)
- toble 13y agoI guess one good thing about this charade is it keeps the media interested. These sorts of stories normally disappear after a few days, with only the most enthusiastic person able to dedicate their time to follow them. Same thing with Assange, him being stuck in an embassy is a bit of a freak show (can't think of a better phrase). He pops up randomly and the press can't help but point their cameras and microphones at him. Assange is practically on the media's doorstep.
- mtgx 13y agoI hope the the NSA spying story stays in the media for many months, because I fear that as soon as politicians stop fearing the outrage over this, they will immediately grant immunities for this like they did with carriers earlier, and will also probably pass new laws to make whatever people may suspect NSA is doing now is illegal (not just unconstitutional) to make it legal. But if they fear outrage, they might not do it yet.
- eatitraw 13y agoThe title is ambigous. I speak russian, so I've checked one russian news resource: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gazeta.ru%2Fpolitics%2Fnews%2F2013%2F06%2F25%2Fn_2995905.shtml http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=... Lavrov actualy said "Snowden hasn't crossed the russian border", not "has not entered Russia". The quote from the article in OP's link: > Correspondents say Mr Lavrov's comments suggest that Mr Snowden remained airside after landing in Moscow, and so has technically never entered Russian territory. During last couple of days there were a number of news telling that Snowden flew to Moscow but never crossed the russian border(he had no visa anyway). The only new information in bbc's article is Lavrov's confirmation. So: Snowden (probably) crossed HK border before flight to Moscow, but after arrival in Moscow he (probably) hasn't crossed the border.
- eru 13y ago> US officials have defended the practice of gathering telephone and internet data from private users around the world. > They say Prism cannot be used to target intentionally any Americans or anyone in the US, [...]. What a relief to us unAmericans..
- Kurtz79 13y agoWell honestly, even as a fellow non-American, I think it's common sense that the US government should have to justify their actions only to US citizens. If the other countries are concerned about the effects that PRISM can have on theirs, it should be up to their own governments to take the issue to the US. It's kind of worrying (although not surprising in the least) that basically there hasn't been a serious complaint from anyone.
- eru 13y ago> Well honestly, even as a fellow non-American, I think it's common sense that the US government should have to justify their actions only to US citizens. I am not sure. The Germans seem to manage a more mature attitude about their responsibility to the world. Perhaps countries should upgrade their civil rights to human rights.
- Kurtz79 13y agoJust as they are imposing a policy of severe economic austerity (with little or no results, I may add) to many countries in Europe in order to safeguard the investments they made in those countries ? Mind, I'm not blaming them. They are doing their own interests, as they should (and many of the countries affected are in that situation by their own faults only), but let's not pretend they are somehow different.
- eru 13y agoOh, I was talking about personal liberties (often guaranteed by the German constitution), not about current fiscal policy.
- uvdiv 13y agoNevertheless: 06/25 14:37 RUSSIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITIES MAY DETAIN SNOWDEN TO ESTABLISH ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, INCLUDING PASSPORT DETAILS - SOURCE http://www.interfax.com/news.asp http://www.interfax.com/news.asp
- zokier 13y agowhat does "to establish all circumstances" mean in this context?
- verroq 13y agoAre they allowed to though? He technically isn't in Russian terroritory.
- notimetorelax 13y agoTell me this is US border police and airport security allowed to detain anyone making a hop in the US? I'm pretty sure airport security can detain any and everyone they desire.
- CaptainZapp 13y agoUS airports don't have such a thing as a transit zone. Even if you're flying to a third country via an US airport, you need to go through immigration, collect your luggage, go through customs, re-check your luggage and then endure the whole security circus once again. This is not the case in most any other airport on the globe, where you usually remain in the transit zone if you're travelling to a third country. That said: I agree with you that the Russian statement is likely a cop out. If they want to arrest you they wouldn't give a shit if you're in the transit zone or not. That probably goes for every other country too.
- notimetorelax 13y agoI didn't know that, thank you for the explanation. And yes just as you said, IMHO transit zone is not a safety zone from the hosting government, it is more just a convenience thing for the travellers.
- ramblerman 13y ago--- US Secretary of State John Kerry said it would be "deeply troubling" if it became clear that China had "wilfully" allowed him to fly out of Hong Kong. --- As a generally pro US European I have to wonder if the US realizes the extent of the PR disaster it is creating with each passing statement. I mean what does this idle threat really accomplish? It makes China look good, it makes the states look like the bully and it carries absolutely zero weight. If anything it just makes China look stronger internationally.
- ra 13y agoIt makes China look like a good world citizen and the US look like a self righteous sabre rattling bully.
- threeseed 13y agoWell only if you are incredibly ignorant or have selective amnesia. China is far, far from a good world citizen. They commit some of the worst human rights abuses, have rampant censorship and lest we forget their system of government is hardly democratic.
- gwgarry 13y agoKettle meet pot. The different being overt vs. covert.
- rimantas 13y agoFrom where I sit US does not look that much different. Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, drone, all this PRISM stuff.
- alistair77 13y agoI agree. But the second part of the statement is still true, "the US look like a self righteous sabre rattling bully"
- veidr 13y agoI think "it makes China look better" would be more accurate. China is a brutal[1] totalitarian regime without the rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, or basic civil rights that people in much of the developed world take for granted. But over the past 12 years, the USA looks increasingly like a brutal[2] authoritarian regime without the rule of law, an informed electorate, or basic civil rights that people in much of the developed world take for granted. That doesn't make China look good. But it makes China look a whole lot more normal as a powerful nation. [1]: torture, secret prisons, indefinite detention without trial, forced abortions, etc [2]: torture, secret prisons, indefinite detention without trial, assassination, lack of basic healthcare, etc
- josteink 13y ago> He also called on Russia to "live by the standards of the law because that's in the interests of everybody". What he means is that he calls on Russia to side-step its own law and enact US laws in Russia when it benefits the US. And that the US should be allowed to side-step the law whenever and wherever it so damns pleases. What a hypocrite.
- CKKim 13y ago[Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov] criticised what he termed US attempts to blame Russia for his disappearance, saying they were "groundless and unacceptable". and Meanwhile, China has also described US accusations that it facilitated the departure of fugitive Edward Snowden from Hong Kong as "groundless and unacceptable". Does anyone else find it slightly odd that they used identical wording? Is this a case of the Chinese saying "well the Russians nailed it, let's use the exact same phrase", or what precisely?
- agravier 13y agoStandard diplomatic language perhaps?
- CKKim 13y agoThat seems the most likely, doesn't it? I'd love it if somewhere there were an official diplomatic language glossary with translations for what these terms really mean, e.g. groundless and unacceptable: "justified and permissible".
- notimetorelax 13y agoPlus in both cases these could be translations from Chinese and Russian languages.
- tokenadult 13y agoThe term "enter" (a country) is a term of art in immigration law and international law, so, yes, it is technically possible that Snowden is on the sovereign territory of Russia without ever having entered Russia. The issue of what travel documents he was using to get on the last airline flight he took, and whether or not those will be considered valid for entry to Russia by Russian authorities, is one of the many interesting open questions in this case. Does anyone reading this thread have any serious doubt that China uses all national technical means available to maintain surveillance of as many places it can reach, especially in regard to separatist movements like the Tibetan and Eastern Turkestan independence movements? Likewise for Russia; can there be any reasonable doubt that Russia monitors much (all?) Internet traffic to the country from elsewhere, or within the country in general?
- codeulike 13y agoI'm pretty sure that Assange said that Ecuador had issued Snowden with refugee-asylum type documents (sorry dont know the official term) that allow him to travel. Thats what he used to get out of Hong Kong I think. This does not necessarily mean that Ecuador is his final destination though.
- notdrunkatall 13y agoDoes anyone else find it incredibly unsettling that you need to be sponsored by a state to move about the world? I mean it's something that I've always known, but never considered until recently. Until just a couple of hundred years ago, this was not the case - you could do something which put you at odds with your country, and despite their best efforts, you could still disappear. Contrast that with today, when your freedom hinges on the whims of our parent state and the subsequent whims of any other state which might decide to stick their neck out to help you. It's unsettling how much different the two situations are in terms of how much control the state ultimately has over us. And that control is only increasing. Do something against the collective state apparatus, and you had better hope that somewhere, someone is willing to help you out, because without those documents, you're going to be fucked. I don't think I like that very much.
- smackay 13y agoFirst North Korea and Iran make a mockery of the USA in negotiations over their nuclear capabilities. Now it's Hong Kong and Russia. Next in line is Ecuador. The reservoir of USA authority is evaporating fast with no real way to stop it. As far as the game of diplomacy is concerned the score so far is USA 0 - 4 Rest of the World (all own goals). The consequences of this could be rather serious. A diminished USA is going to leave a vacuum which, regardless of the current behaviour of the USA government, is not going to be a good thing as Russia and China rush in to grab what they can. Writing the history of this and the subsequent events in a hundred years or so will be very interesting.
- threeseed 13y agoYou couldn't be more wrong here. North Korea and Iran are both coming to the table with the US/EU as a result of economic isolation and sanctions. It has been without a doubt the best approach short of military involvement (which nobody wants). And this incident isn't going to cause the US one iota of problems in the future. China is actively trying to improve relations and Russia is becoming more and more isolated as we saw at the G8. This situation is going to affect world relations the same way Wikileaks has i.e. not at all.
- rimantas 13y agoDon't treay US and EU as the same. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/11/usa-security-eu-idUSL5N0EN1D420130611 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/11/usa-security-eu-id...
- paganel 13y agoAs an Eastern-European dependent on US "soft power" I really hoped that the last "lost" decade would really change how things work at the State Department and about how the US handles its foreign policy generally speaking. IMHO, the US relies too much on how many carriers they can bring to a "hot point" and how much aerial damage they can cause, sort of forgetting that the Berlin Wall was not teared down using bombs, but because people wanted to purchase Coca Cola and Levi's and to buy print-magazines with real rock-stars on their covers. There's also something to be said about America needing a Nixon-like strategic thinker (his openness to Mao etc) and forgetting about the small battles that don't accomplish anything (we've killed X mujaheddin in the Yemen desert, we've "liberated" a God-forgotten Afghan province etc)
- sidcool 13y ago>Russia says it has had no involvement in the travel plans of fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden. Is Russia relenting to the US pressure?
- michas 13y agoRussia is probably the country that recruited Snowden as it's agent, and they commanded him to reveal NSA secrets. Now Snowden is probably safe somewhere deep in Russia, and Russian authorities just lie about "no involvement in the travel plans"
- tty 13y agoDo you know something we don't?
- fastfade 13y agoMost Americans in my little realm of life don't even understand what Snowden did other than "he revealed classified information". I agree with those who suggest that the public will soon pass to the next distraction. Thanks for being so engaged America.
- throwaway10001 13y agoTwo things: 1. Putin is sick and tired of US raining (or trying to) on his parade. This would tell US to go F itself, increase Putin's cred in Russia and in many other countries. 2. Snowden has a trove of intel that Russia would love to have.
- znowi 13y agoIt's funny, I look at all this and what comes to mind is the movie "Iron Sky" with its cleverly depicted political landscape. If you watched it, you'll understand :) The US cheated their way into the Iraq war. Invaded Afghanistan. With Iran likely the next target. Stirred up the Middle East with Egypt, Libya, Syria on fire. Commit drone strikes worldwide. Kidnap and torture people on foreign soil. Keep half the world under surveillance. And the language they converse in is of demands and threats. I think we have a major bully emerging here.
- rooshdi 13y agoThey've been a bully. That's just a sample of recent history.
- sigzero 13y agoIt's only a matter of time before they get him.
- loceng 13y agoSo far so good that if whistleblowers can find protection from the U.S. government, that more will come forward.
- alexeiz 13y agoRussian authorities are either mocking the Obama administration or learning from it: > ... Mr Lavrov said. "He chose his itinerary on his own. We learnt about it... from the media.