4 ms·

Having hired many software development firms for projects, I expect the project manager to ensure the consulting team is not working inhumane hours and to push

by adammil 13y ago

Having hired many software development firms for projects, I expect the project manager to ensure the consulting team is not working inhumane hours and to push back if I ask for too much, too soon. Healthy push back should normally come in the form of "What you want will take an extra developer, an extra month, an extra $20k, etc." and let me decide if I still want to do it. If the firm fails, then I fail, so I never intentionally do things to undermine the consultant, but I am also not perfect and depend on honest communication from them. Also, a project done ahead of schedule is not as helpful as it seems. Even if the consultant is done early, it doesn't always mean that I can start my next milestone early.

nknighthb 13y ago
And then when the managers rely on pushback from engineers who don't know how to say no, they burn out and the whole thing blows up. I still don't understand how our industry makes any forward progress in the aggregate.
- mh- 13y ago
  Worse: engineers that think they gave a clear and well-reasoned 'no', but their manager is left with an entirely different takeaway from the conversation.
- levosmetalo 13y ago
  If you are a manager, it is a valuable skill to be able to actually hear "no" from the developer, which may come in many different flavors, but only a few will actually say "no" plainly clear. On the other point, this seems more like a US/India thing. In Europe, where there are certain regulations about working hours, mobbing, and in general, higher employee protection by law, people are not that afraid to say "no" like in the US, but it's still not always clear and loud. I guess centuries of taking heads from people saying "no" have taken its toll, and it's still hard to say "no" to superior.
  - justinlloyd 13y ago
    35 years has taught me that saying "no" as an engineer means you are being an "obstructionist" or "not a team player." I am most definitely one of those because I was taught to say "no" very early on. The problem is that many people are affronted when they hear "no," take offense to it, possibly because it is a rejection, or, and this happens more frequently, a "no" answer to a lot of managers means "I just didn't ask you to do this persuasively enough."

by adammil 13y ago

nknighthb 13y ago

And then when the managers rely on pushback from engineers who don't know how to say no, they burn out and the whole thing blows up. I still don't understand how our industry makes any forward progress in the aggregate.

mh- 13y ago
Worse: engineers that think they gave a clear and well-reasoned 'no', but their manager is left with an entirely different takeaway from the conversation.
levosmetalo 13y ago
If you are a manager, it is a valuable skill to be able to actually hear "no" from the developer, which may come in many different flavors, but only a few will actually say "no" plainly clear. On the other point, this seems more like a US/India thing. In Europe, where there are certain regulations about working hours, mobbing, and in general, higher employee protection by law, people are not that afraid to say "no" like in the US, but it's still not always clear and loud. I guess centuries of taking heads from people saying "no" have taken its toll, and it's still hard to say "no" to superior.
- justinlloyd 13y ago
  35 years has taught me that saying "no" as an engineer means you are being an "obstructionist" or "not a team player." I am most definitely one of those because I was taught to say "no" very early on. The problem is that many people are affronted when they hear "no," take offense to it, possibly because it is a rejection, or, and this happens more frequently, a "no" answer to a lot of managers means "I just didn't ask you to do this persuasively enough."