6 ms·

It is so utterly bizarre to ask children that young to "pledge" their allegiance to something. I didn't even have a functional understanding of what those word

by jlgreco 13y ago

It is so utterly bizarre to ask children that young to "pledge" their allegiance to something. I didn't even have a functional understanding of what those words meant until I was much older, before then they were just words that I had memorized. But because it was introduced so young, it only had the opportunity to appear strange in retrospect...

Cobbler 13y ago
It is amazing how our institutions enroll their new members into their private agenda with intent to promote the longevity of the institution, in the long term, and their immediate survival, in the short term. In some strange way, we feed off our young and consume them, rather than nourish them. Sad
enraged_camel 13y ago
Young children are ridiculously easy to indoctrinate. You see this type of thing with religious education and upbringing all the time. A lot of adults are religious not because they chose to do so, but because they were brought up in religious households and their childhood activities involved going to church. As such, religion became a part of their identity.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  There do seem to be plenty of parallels; enough for me to feel confident that the mechanism is the same. I wonder though if these systems were implemented accidentally or in a cool calculating way. The religion one seems like something that could bootstrap itself from true belief (if you honestly think that you have life figure out, chances are you are going to tell your kids), but the pledge one seems more calculated to me. There just really is no reason to have young children pledging allegiance to a flag and its government.
- cpher 13y ago
  Personally, I'm glad my children say the "pledge" every day to start school. Yes, I'm religious, but I'm also liberal on some things. For instance, I think anyone charged with marijuana possession should be freed from jail-- that's absurd in my opinion. However, you have to draw the line somewhere. My childrens' identity isn't tied to "religion" per se, but rather "faith." But I wouldn't expect someone with hostility towards religion/faith to get that...
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    What do you think the benefits of having them recite the pledge at school every single day are? Some sort of loyalty to government that could not be taught? If you think loyalty to government is a good idea, that is fine, but why not teach them why that is the case? I'm sure you have plenty of good reasons lined up, so give them those reason instead of making them recite a pledge...
    - cpher 13y ago
      It has nothing to do with "loyalty to government." It's loyalty to the concept of a free country, where you can even choose not to say the "pledge." I really don't care what you do. The point of the pledge has nothing to do with a physical piece of cloth, and everything to do with the "republic for which it stands." That's the benefit. It's a reminder to be loyal to the people, not to the mechanisms of the government. The fact that people from all backgrounds/countries can be united under common principles is the point. So, no, I don't teach my children loyalty to "government", but rather their country, which, up until recently was pretty free from their government.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        The pledge is not teaching, it is brainwashing. If you value the notion of a free society (and I am sure that you do) then you should be able to teach that appreciation (and I am sure that you could, if you tried). Explain to them why it is something to be valued, don't merely have them accept it as axiomatic by having them repeat it ad nauseam. Also, the pledge is absolutely to a particular government; I don't know how that could be any more clear.
        cpher 13y ago
        Your condescension does nothing to further your argument. And I'm quite happy with what I teach my children about their country--warts and all. I was simply replying to the GP about the pledge. If you don't like my opinion I don't care and you can go pound sand.
mpyne 13y ago
Should I become Benevolent Dictator of some future anarchist America, the Pledge might actually be the first thing I get rid of. I'm of the opinion that if people are going to pledge allegiance to anything it will be because they want to, not because they were made to recite some prose. Of course I know that opinion isn't exactly controversial around here.
- zanny 13y ago
  Well, foundationally here, if you want to talk about voluntarism all those kids are forced to be there, and their parents often don't have a power to stop it (too busy to homeschool, too poor to private school).
  - mpyne 13y ago
    There's a very compelling societal interest in having children receive a basic education though. We make kids get shots, require them to learn to drive to get a license, etc. for the same reason. There's no compelling societal interest in brainwashing kids to claim to support a government (since even making them recite the Pledge hardly makes them more reliable citizens).
    - zanny 13y ago
      Public schooling often doesn't provide a basic education, though. The graduating illiteracy rates, lack of any retained historical knowledge ("is Britain a state? or "isn't Toronto in the US?") the inability to do basic arithmatic without a calaculator, etc. It also doesn't teach anything close to critical thinking, problem solving, questioning fundamentals, or anything close to an exposure to career domains. Also, the shots are at a parents discretion, even if peer pressure is applied. The choice to get a drivers license is inevitably on the child (you can't force them to take the test). Public education is compulsory by gunpoint (ie, imprisonment of parents who withhold their children from the public school system or homeschooled exams, though there are so many exceptions it is silly).
steveklabnik 13y ago
> This is not a form of brainwashing. This is not a form of brainwashing. This is not a form of brainwashing. There is nothing creepy about having children pledge allegiance every morning to something they don't even understand... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=618U-_8o31k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=618U-_8o31k

by jlgreco 13y ago

Cobbler 13y ago

It is amazing how our institutions enroll their new members into their private agenda with intent to promote the longevity of the institution, in the long term, and their immediate survival, in the short term. In some strange way, we feed off our young and consume them, rather than nourish them. Sad

enraged_camel 13y ago

Young children are ridiculously easy to indoctrinate. You see this type of thing with religious education and upbringing all the time. A lot of adults are religious not because they chose to do so, but because they were brought up in religious households and their childhood activities involved going to church. As such, religion became a part of their identity.

jlgreco 13y ago
There do seem to be plenty of parallels; enough for me to feel confident that the mechanism is the same. I wonder though if these systems were implemented accidentally or in a cool calculating way. The religion one seems like something that could bootstrap itself from true belief (if you honestly think that you have life figure out, chances are you are going to tell your kids), but the pledge one seems more calculated to me. There just really is no reason to have young children pledging allegiance to a flag and its government.
cpher 13y ago
Personally, I'm glad my children say the "pledge" every day to start school. Yes, I'm religious, but I'm also liberal on some things. For instance, I think anyone charged with marijuana possession should be freed from jail-- that's absurd in my opinion. However, you have to draw the line somewhere. My childrens' identity isn't tied to "religion" per se, but rather "faith." But I wouldn't expect someone with hostility towards religion/faith to get that...
- jlgreco 13y ago
  What do you think the benefits of having them recite the pledge at school every single day are? Some sort of loyalty to government that could not be taught? If you think loyalty to government is a good idea, that is fine, but why not teach them why that is the case? I'm sure you have plenty of good reasons lined up, so give them those reason instead of making them recite a pledge...
  - cpher 13y ago
    It has nothing to do with "loyalty to government." It's loyalty to the concept of a free country, where you can even choose not to say the "pledge." I really don't care what you do. The point of the pledge has nothing to do with a physical piece of cloth, and everything to do with the "republic for which it stands." That's the benefit. It's a reminder to be loyal to the people, not to the mechanisms of the government. The fact that people from all backgrounds/countries can be united under common principles is the point. So, no, I don't teach my children loyalty to "government", but rather their country, which, up until recently was pretty free from their government.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      The pledge is not teaching, it is brainwashing. If you value the notion of a free society (and I am sure that you do) then you should be able to teach that appreciation (and I am sure that you could, if you tried). Explain to them why it is something to be valued, don't merely have them accept it as axiomatic by having them repeat it ad nauseam. Also, the pledge is absolutely to a particular government; I don't know how that could be any more clear.
      - cpher 13y ago
        Your condescension does nothing to further your argument. And I'm quite happy with what I teach my children about their country--warts and all. I was simply replying to the GP about the pledge. If you don't like my opinion I don't care and you can go pound sand.

mpyne 13y ago

Should I become Benevolent Dictator of some future anarchist America, the Pledge might actually be the first thing I get rid of. I'm of the opinion that if people are going to pledge allegiance to anything it will be because they want to, not because they were made to recite some prose. Of course I know that opinion isn't exactly controversial around here.

zanny 13y ago
Well, foundationally here, if you want to talk about voluntarism all those kids are forced to be there, and their parents often don't have a power to stop it (too busy to homeschool, too poor to private school).
- mpyne 13y ago
  There's a very compelling societal interest in having children receive a basic education though. We make kids get shots, require them to learn to drive to get a license, etc. for the same reason. There's no compelling societal interest in brainwashing kids to claim to support a government (since even making them recite the Pledge hardly makes them more reliable citizens).
  - zanny 13y ago
    Public schooling often doesn't provide a basic education, though. The graduating illiteracy rates, lack of any retained historical knowledge ("is Britain a state? or "isn't Toronto in the US?") the inability to do basic arithmatic without a calaculator, etc. It also doesn't teach anything close to critical thinking, problem solving, questioning fundamentals, or anything close to an exposure to career domains. Also, the shots are at a parents discretion, even if peer pressure is applied. The choice to get a drivers license is inevitably on the child (you can't force them to take the test). Public education is compulsory by gunpoint (ie, imprisonment of parents who withhold their children from the public school system or homeschooled exams, though there are so many exceptions it is silly).

steveklabnik 13y ago

> This is not a form of brainwashing. This is not a form of brainwashing. This is not a form of brainwashing. There is nothing creepy about having children pledge allegiance every morning to something they don't even understand... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=618U-_8o31k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=618U-_8o31k