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Why should we love our countries unconditionally? Why be brain-washed like that? We are all intelligent people here, surely we know better than to be slaves, ev

Why should we love our countries unconditionally? Why be brain-washed like that? We are all intelligent people here, surely we know better than to be slaves, even to an idea? Now, I am no anarchist; no mindless rebel. I know what team I play for, and I try to do the right thing by them, and play by the rules of the game, but I definitely don't love my country unconditionally; nor do I shy away from speaking out when criticism is due. I am not perfect, nor is my family, community or country. We have done evil things in the past, and we continue to do them today: the state commits some grievous crimes, but frequently we have no choice, caught as we are between a rock and a hard place. Only be acknowledging the evil can we hope to counter it. If pride makes us shy away from understanding our faults, then we are doomed. So, my loyalty to my state, morally dubious organ that it is, is entirely contingent on it being the least-worst option available; on showing at least some promise of improving over time, and on us collectively having the self-awareness and the humility to acknowledge failure when it occurs, and to recognise evil when it breeds. A self-aware and enlightened populace is necessary, but not sufficient, for a self-aware and enlightened state.

pekk 13y ago
Why should you love your family unconditionally? Arguably, you shouldn't. But something is wrong if your family has a number of merits, is fairly normal as a family, and yet all you do is dwell on its flaws - let alone exaggerate, guess, or make up flaws; let alone badmouth it to everyone else at little provocation, suggest it should be destroyed, or believe fervently that anyone working against it is right and good. We are being manipulated not just by US propaganda and partisan propaganda but also by propaganda of other countries such as Russia, China, Iran... it's ridiculous to ignore this as if it were impossible, assume everything you are told is correct if it is anti-US, and tell yourself that an uncritically contrarian or hostile view is "honest criticism". I wish this would ever be acknowledged, and I wish that contrarian and hostile claims were held to the same standard of evidence as patriotic claims. The reality is that here on HN, they aren't. Gossip is as good as truth as long as it cuts in the right direction.
- parasubvert 13y ago
  I would claim that unconditional love in relationships and family is one of the pillars of civilization; there is also ample evidence that there is a natural neurological predisposition in humans towards such forms of love. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_love https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_love The problem is that it tends to be untenable at scale, it also requires reason as a counter-balance when one member of your family is abusive. Which is why unconditional love for country/nation is usually destructive (see nationalism).
cpursley 13y ago
You can still love the ideal of America. That doesn't mean blind patriotism to the existing state.

pekk 13y ago

Why should you love your family unconditionally? Arguably, you shouldn't. But something is wrong if your family has a number of merits, is fairly normal as a family, and yet all you do is dwell on its flaws - let alone exaggerate, guess, or make up flaws; let alone badmouth it to everyone else at little provocation, suggest it should be destroyed, or believe fervently that anyone working against it is right and good. We are being manipulated not just by US propaganda and partisan propaganda but also by propaganda of other countries such as Russia, China, Iran... it's ridiculous to ignore this as if it were impossible, assume everything you are told is correct if it is anti-US, and tell yourself that an uncritically contrarian or hostile view is "honest criticism". I wish this would ever be acknowledged, and I wish that contrarian and hostile claims were held to the same standard of evidence as patriotic claims. The reality is that here on HN, they aren't. Gossip is as good as truth as long as it cuts in the right direction.

parasubvert 13y ago
I would claim that unconditional love in relationships and family is one of the pillars of civilization; there is also ample evidence that there is a natural neurological predisposition in humans towards such forms of love. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_love https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_love The problem is that it tends to be untenable at scale, it also requires reason as a counter-balance when one member of your family is abusive. Which is why unconditional love for country/nation is usually destructive (see nationalism).

cpursley 13y ago

You can still love the ideal of America. That doesn't mean blind patriotism to the existing state.