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> I'm so fucking sick of the blame America first crowd. Pointing out the true history of the United States is one of the best ways to learn from the mistakes o

> I'm so fucking sick of the blame America first crowd. Pointing out the true history of the United States is one of the best ways to learn from the mistakes of the past. Don't mad at people for talking about this, get mad that colonialism exists and its affects, past and present, continue to shape US society in the negative. > 1. every land has been invaded/occupied/taken over at some point in history. it is human nature. deal with it. This is no way excuses any injustice brought about via military and armed conflict/occupation. > 1.a. Would india be better or worse off today if it were not for British colonialism? I hear this sentiment a lot in various forms, that somehow people in the past who were violently and systematically oppressed and violated should be grateful to their oppressor. This is utter nonsense, the effects of colonialism are not over and continue to affect and harm those people you believe only to have been affected in the past. > 2. the vast majority of native peoples were wiped out by disease, not by warfare. This fact was exploited in warfare and policy against native peoples in the United States and this is not something that excuses violent invasion and occupation. > 3. I didn't fucking enslave anyone. nobody alive today in the US killed any native americans or owned any slaves. The legacy of colonialism and slavery still exist today and some kinds of people still directly benefit from that legacy. To deny that is the wipe the current day experiences and issues that affect native and black folks away so you can feel better about yourself/your country/your society. > 4. America despite its many faults has been an overwhelming force for freedom and wealth throughout the world. A thorough cataloging of such good deeds could take years to compile. This is debatable, however even if good deeds have been done, that doesn't change the history of the horrible things done by the United States and we should most certainly not forget that or ever stop talking about that legacy and how it shapes society today.

lostlogin 13y ago
New Zealand has spent a lot of time agonising over its past treatment of the native Maori and is slowly paying for land taken and righting some of the historic wrongs. It had been politically difficult, with the right wing parties very much against this, but it has gone on a while now. Repairing the damage that nearly destroyed a race may not be possible, but the state that did it should at a minimum try.
- mickeyr 13y ago
  So you're saying it makes since to take money from people that were not involved in harming people & giving it to people that were not harmed makes up for something that happened centuries ago?
  - duncan_bayne 13y ago
    There are two separate issues here. * taxpayer money being allocated on the basis of race, e.g. a Maori television station. That is morally wrong. I think that's the situation you're referring to, and completely agree with you. * the Crown (now Government) signed the Treaty of Waitangi with almost all of the Maori tribes in New Zealand, essentially pledging to leave their land alone. Then, in many cases, they took it anyway. That is something for which reparation is entirely appropriate, as the entities involved (tribes, and Government) are still extant today.
lostlogin 13y ago
I'm not sure if your referring to New Zealand or not, but the harm was happening in NZ up until quite recently - and arguably still is. I live on land that was once part of a local tribes area, I have dug in the garden and found old shell fish quite deep down in what was once a waste pit. My father has found old adze heads in a relatives garden. I believe that I am benefitting from living where I do, and am more than happy for my taxes to go to those who are descended from those who's land was swindled/stolen from them. The long term effect on a people who's land, lives and social systems have been damaged by colonization is often (always?) bad - and if a small change to me can result in a positive change for them, I don't see the problem.

lostlogin 13y ago

New Zealand has spent a lot of time agonising over its past treatment of the native Maori and is slowly paying for land taken and righting some of the historic wrongs. It had been politically difficult, with the right wing parties very much against this, but it has gone on a while now. Repairing the damage that nearly destroyed a race may not be possible, but the state that did it should at a minimum try.

mickeyr 13y ago
So you're saying it makes since to take money from people that were not involved in harming people & giving it to people that were not harmed makes up for something that happened centuries ago?
- duncan_bayne 13y ago
  There are two separate issues here. * taxpayer money being allocated on the basis of race, e.g. a Maori television station. That is morally wrong. I think that's the situation you're referring to, and completely agree with you. * the Crown (now Government) signed the Treaty of Waitangi with almost all of the Maori tribes in New Zealand, essentially pledging to leave their land alone. Then, in many cases, they took it anyway. That is something for which reparation is entirely appropriate, as the entities involved (tribes, and Government) are still extant today.

lostlogin 13y ago

I'm not sure if your referring to New Zealand or not, but the harm was happening in NZ up until quite recently - and arguably still is. I live on land that was once part of a local tribes area, I have dug in the garden and found old shell fish quite deep down in what was once a waste pit. My father has found old adze heads in a relatives garden. I believe that I am benefitting from living where I do, and am more than happy for my taxes to go to those who are descended from those who's land was swindled/stolen from them. The long term effect on a people who's land, lives and social systems have been damaged by colonization is often (always?) bad - and if a small change to me can result in a positive change for them, I don't see the problem.