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Funny how the prominent left politicians (not citizens) are coming out and showing who they really are: Neocons. The only thing 'deeply troubling' is that both
by cpursley 13y ago
Funny how the prominent left politicians (not citizens) are coming out and showing who they really are: Neocons.
The only thing 'deeply troubling' is that both sides are labeling a whistleblower as a 'leaker' and 'traitor' when all he's done is expose that U.S. citizens info is collected without warrants, a likely constitutional violation.
- cema 13y agoNeocons! Another one of those words. But words have meanings. Would you mind explaining how exactly they are neocons, other than you feel they are somewhat sinister?
- cpursley 13y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism
- CWuestefeld 13y agoIndeed. I think that should make it clear that the Liberals aren't turning into neocons, and the Conservatives aren't turning into... well, whatever. I think you've just uncovered the fact that both parties are really just two sides of the same coin. It may appear that they're engaged in some kind of tug-of-war struggle, but if so, we are the rope. In fact, both DEMs and GOPs agree on the vast majority of issues, the only differences are in fine details. They're both quite happy with the form and function of today's government.
- dotcoma 13y agoIn the French sense, perhaps. In French, "con" means idiot, so...
- bpatrianakos 13y agoDude's gotta fall in line with Obama as ambassador. This is a bad example.
- ihsw 13y agoCalling them neocons ignores the basis of their political beliefs: Statism. The American Democrats are essentially Statists who will - at any cost - support the advancement of the state, specifically the state's control over every aspect of life. Their mantra is "What you can control cannot hurt you." Personally I also equate American Republicans with fascists, whom spout rhetoric about patriotism and some measure of ethnocentrism.
- cpursley 13y agoYes - Statism is a better term! I agree.
- wavefunction 13y agoNeocons and Neoliberals (which is what I would characterize the "liberal" elite in DC) are pretty similar in most ways. They simply differ on whether it is military force or economic "liberalization" that should be used to promote "freedom and democracy."
- krenoten 13y agoAny ism is reductionist, always with some loss of information. Sometimes they're beneficial, every thought we have is the result of extremely downsampled data. But without being mindful that simplifications are at play they can be much more dangerous. It is hard or impossible to know which simplifications are actually happening in many cases, because the blanket is the only handle that many data have been tagged with - not the sum of their intricacies.
- dllthomas 13y agoThose with power have statist tendencies. This is "just" a matter of "power corrupts" - those out of power on the left and the right are both substantially more leery of government control. Of course, that we can explain it is not to say that this corruption is something we should accept.
- homosaur 13y agoIs this surprising? These are people who believe in the morality of the state. Of course they believe in this, because their government is moral and of course would never do something unfairly or politically motivated like those goddamn caveman Republicans would they? Remember where the neocons originated: these were Democrats who became frustrated by the post-Vietnam anti-war sentiments in the Democrat party (the 5 minutes that the Dems were an anti-war party). Let's not forget that guys like Hitchens were some of the biggest cheerleaders for war post-9/11. Fake "liberal" and "conservative" labels that are more about Jesus and abortion than real politics are almost entirely meaningless. When someone says they are a liberal nowadays, it means nothing more to me than if they said they were a Yankees fan. I know it's going to be yet another indoctrinated statist.
- kbenson 13y agoIsn't it more likely that you don't understand their views and the process by which they plan to enact them than that you fully understand them, better than they understand themselves? Perhaps their driving motive is not politics at all, but something else (such as social change or well-being) and the politics required are simple a means to an end? Perhaps it's just that you don't understand their motives, or any number of other possibilities? Your off-hand dismissal does nobody any good.
- cpursley 13y ago"Perhaps their driving motive is not politics at all, but something else" Yes, it's called narcissism. Having been involved in politics at one point and being around elected politicians and aspiring politicians (at least at the state level), I can tell you with absolute certainty that the overwhelming motivation for public office is narcissism. This is also the reason I abandoned my interest in politics - some of the worst human beings I've ever been around.
- untog 13y agoAnd this, ladies and gentlemen, is why talking about politics in HN goes nowhere good, ever.
- threeseed 13y agoSorry but either you're badly ignorant or being deliberately disingenuous. Snowden has gone far beyond simple whistleblowing about US citizen's information being collected. He has specifically detailed hacking attempts by the US against Chinese universities and cell phone companies. This is clearly a different form of leaking and it is something the majority of the public is strongly against.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- fafner 13y agoKerry has spent the recent month advocating to send weapons into a conflict zone (Syria)...
- shenberg 13y agoHow is leaking info about the US hacking Chinese mobile operators related to US citizens? http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1266821/us-hacks-chinese-mobile-phone-companies-steals-sms-data-edward-snowden http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1266821/us-hacks-chin...
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoWell for one thing we no longer have moral standing to object if another country is caught hacking mobile data carriers in the US.
- betterunix 13y ago"the prominent left politicians" Who exactly are you referring to? There are almost no politicians holding high office that can be called "left wing." At best, you have centrists.
- rbanffy 13y agoCalling Democrats "the left" is an interesting oddity for everybody outside the US. In most other countries the mainstream political spectrum of the US would go from right (Democrats) to far right (Republicans).
- maw 13y agoI wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that I buy into this, for any number of reasons, but one definition of a neocon is "a liberal who has been mugged by reality." (For what it's worth, I primarily take issue with the words 'liberal' and 'reality'.)
- Spooky23 13y agoKerry is the Secretary of State. His role is to represent the State and the policy direction of the President. 'Deeply troubling' is diplospeak.
- malandrew 13y agoAre there any congressmen (or congresswomen) who have been outspoken in favor of Snowden, or are all 435 members of the House and 100 members of the Senate condemning him?