5 ms·

Snowden’s whereabouts unknown

90 points by gerhardi 13y ago

dsirijus 13y ago
> "if he were to pull a Snowden in these countries, they’d jail him immediately." This is the first time I've noticed this usage of "Snowden". Anyone noticed it earlier?
jusben1369 13y ago
I wonder how those reporters feel signing up for a 12 hour flight to Cuba now for nothing. I have to confess I chuckled with the "they locked the doors and he's not on the flight!" tweet. Rountrip to Cuba for nothing.
- michielvoo 13y ago
  Hopefully they use the 12 hours to discuss and write about the actual issue, instead of the person that reported it.
  - untog 13y ago
    Just like Hacker News is, right? Oh.
    - jusben1369 13y ago
      Oh very "touche!"
  - walshemj 13y ago
    No they will be hitting the duty free booze - you obviously haven't been around many Journalists :-) And probably trying to persuade their editors that they should stay on Cuba for a few days just in case nudge nudge
    - makomk 13y ago
      Apparently there's no booze served on the flight either. The journalists are very disappointed.
cpursley 13y ago
Funny how the prominent left politicians (not citizens) are coming out and showing who they really are: Neocons. The only thing 'deeply troubling' is that both sides are labeling a whistleblower as a 'leaker' and 'traitor' when all he's done is expose that U.S. citizens info is collected without warrants, a likely constitutional violation.
- cema 13y ago
  Neocons! Another one of those words. But words have meanings. Would you mind explaining how exactly they are neocons, other than you feel they are somewhat sinister?
  - cpursley 13y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism
    - CWuestefeld 13y ago
      Indeed. I think that should make it clear that the Liberals aren't turning into neocons, and the Conservatives aren't turning into... well, whatever. I think you've just uncovered the fact that both parties are really just two sides of the same coin. It may appear that they're engaged in some kind of tug-of-war struggle, but if so, we are the rope. In fact, both DEMs and GOPs agree on the vast majority of issues, the only differences are in fine details. They're both quite happy with the form and function of today's government.
  - dotcoma 13y ago
    In the French sense, perhaps. In French, "con" means idiot, so...
    - camus 13y ago
      it also means v*gina.
LandoCalrissian 13y ago
He may actually make it, which is amazing. This is probably the best outcome Snowden could have possibly hoped for.
smegel 13y ago
> A frustrated Secretary of State John F. Kerry said he was troubled by the apparent refusal of fellow world powers China and Russia to respond to espionage charges the United States had filed against Snowden, who leaked top-secret documents about U.S. surveillance programs. This is kind of a strange statement. On what grounds could/would China or Russia "respond to espionage charges" in the absence of extradition treaties with the US? Its also somewhat strange the US would expect any other country, especially these two, to care deeply about leaks against it that expose massive US/British spying against basically the whole world.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Extradition for espionage seems like it ought to be totally different from the regular kind. If a guy gunned down some children or something, sure, yell at anyone and everyone in sight to get him back. But why would you expect any non-allied country to give the slightest damn about espionage?
  - kintamanimatt 13y ago
    Maybe they know this but perhaps they're just grandstanding in front of their electorate.
- threeseed 13y ago
  It's not strange if you follow the news. http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/zxxx/t1049546.shtml http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/zxxx/t1049546.shtml China's new President has made it a high priority to improve relations with the US which is why many were surprised Snowden was let out of HK quite so easily.
- refurb 13y ago
  You're taking Kerry's words WAY to literally. The US wanted Snowden and Russia said no, therefore the US had to respond. Kerry wasn't literally thinking "Oh my god! They said no! How dare they? What do you do now???" The US knew what the answer was going to be before they even asked the question.
rumcajz 13y ago
Hm. His passport was revoked. Reminds me of the communist era here in eastern Europe when people were not allowed to hold passports, unless the state decided that it's safe to let them travel abroad.
hispeedencrypt 13y ago
The tone of this article suggests Snowden is nothing more than a pawn in someone else's game. Why should anyone care so much about him? We've heard repeatedly that what he has disclosed - a massive amount of spying on Americans and other nationals - was already known by everyone. Who was that person who said: If you are worried about someone discovering your "secret" activities, then maybe you be doing those activities in the first place. Maybe the sooner politicians accept that "frictionless sharing" is the future, the better off we'll all be? What do you think? Other commenters have pointed out that most users outside HN do not care about data privacy. So why should politicians care? Are they a special case? I thought they represent the views of their constituents.
wf 13y ago
“It would be very disappointing if he was willfully allowed to board an airplane,” said Kerry, who was traveling in New Delhi. “There would be without any doubt . . . consequences.” [emphasis mine]. What is he insinuating by saying something cryptic like this?
- nicholassmith 13y ago
  It's standard sabre rattling. There's not a lot America could do to China or Russia to upset them, so it's pointless rattling of the political sabre to try and look tough on the big stage. Well, in my opinion anyway, unless Kerry means he's going to unleash a torrent of US cyberspooks to pwn their networks even more.
flyinRyan 13y ago
>He cited U.S. refusals to extradite bankers convicted in crimes in Ecuador, saying Quito was now free to exercise its “sovereignty” in the same way. Way to go Ecuador! >“There is no small irony here,” Kerry added, posing the hypothetical question of whether Snowden sought refuge in China and Russia “because they’re such powerful bastions of Internet freedom.” No sign of shame or embarrassment. Disgusting.
mistercow 13y ago
>“Ecuador puts its principles above its economic interests,” he said. Something about this statement made me wonder: is Ecuador just collecting political fugitives so that it can cut some nice deal with the US in the future? This isn't a country with a stellar human rights record. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with them accumulating a stable of high profile asylum-seeking bargaining chips.
- schiffern 13y ago
  >This isn't a country with a stellar human rights record. The same could be said of the US. Surely you know this. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/25/opinion/americas-shameful-human-rights-record.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/25/opinion/americas-shameful-... I assume when the US shelters human rights activists you will question its motives in a similar manner, no? Also, cute how you jump to that reasoning first. Surely there is no other reason a sovereign nation would need a bargaining chip with the USA.
  - mistercow 13y ago
    >The same could be said of the US. Surely you know this. Yes, but the US has much bigger guns in the game of diplomatic bargaining than Ecuador - including actual guns. Handing over political refugees would be an unnecessary sacrifice of reputation for the US when there are so many other tools at its disposal. Other nations already mostly do whatever the US tells them to, and when they don't, a minor play like that wouldn't make a difference. Ecuador does not have such clout, so political refugees are a far more useful bargaining chip.
    - schiffern 13y ago
      Since when is the US "handing over" anyone?
      - mistercow 13y ago
        They aren't. I think you should reread my comment.
pvnick 13y ago
Kerry really comes off as a crybaby here
lucian1900 13y ago
> “The bottom line is very simple,” Schumer said. “Allies are supposed to treat each other in decent ways, and Putin always seems almost eager to put a finger in the eye of the United States, whether it is Syria, Iran and now, of course, with Snowden. That’s not how allies should treat one another, and I think it will have serious consequences for the United States-Russia relationship.” And spying on so many of the citizens of so many allies is somehow perfectly ok?
- rmk2 13y ago
  Well...Russia does seem a bit bitter about other spying incidents: http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=425431 http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=425431 So it's not just the spying on citizens, it's also the...uhm...spying in general.
graedus 13y ago
> [Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.)] added: “These are countries that violate press freedoms every day. And yet [Snowden]’s seeking political asylum in those very countries where . . . if he were to pull a Snowden in these countries, they’d jail him immediately.” ...exactly as the US has attempted to do, on trumped-up espionage charges no less? The _only_ reason that didn't happen in this case is because he learned from previous leakers and was smart enough to protect himself by fleeing the country beforehand.
hobbes 13y ago
This is ironic. Snowden is able to pass through Russian territory because, according to the law of Russia, it is allowed. This, says Mr Kerry, is deeply troubling. However, blanket monitoring of internet activity, which according to the law of the US, is allowed, is not deeply troubling?
angersock 13y ago
From a politics standpoint, this is really really poor diplomacy, giving a public tone which makes us look weak and forcing us into a position where the US looks servile to other countries. It's just sloppy. Why can't we have Clinton back as Secretary of State?
avn2109 13y ago
How is Snowden pulling this off? Can anyone elaborate on the balance of power that has allowed him to stay free and travel? This seems to be quite a feat, but I can't read between the lines enough to sort out why these foreign powers are staying out of his hair.
- Sharlin 13y ago
  What do you think would happen in the symmetrical situation where a Russian or Chinese whistleblower, exposing evidence of his respective country spying on the Americans, were to seek protection from the US? There's no chance the Yanks would just meekly accede to an extradition request.
redsymbol 13y ago
From the article: The flight from [Moscow] was packed with journalists who had purchased tickets believing that Snowden would be on the flight. It would be hilarious if Snowden and his companions tried to get seats on that flight, but could not, because it was already fully booked by these proactive journalists.
nakedrobot2 13y ago
These politicians are increasingly sounding desperate. Like the parents of a teenager who realize that their power is not limitless and is in fact evaporating.

90 points by gerhardi 13y ago

> "if he were to pull a Snowden in these countries, they’d jail him immediately." This is the first time I've noticed this usage of "Snowden". Anyone noticed it earlier?

jusben1369 13y ago

I wonder how those reporters feel signing up for a 12 hour flight to Cuba now for nothing. I have to confess I chuckled with the "they locked the doors and he's not on the flight!" tweet. Rountrip to Cuba for nothing.

michielvoo 13y ago
Hopefully they use the 12 hours to discuss and write about the actual issue, instead of the person that reported it.
- untog 13y ago
  Just like Hacker News is, right? Oh.
  - jusben1369 13y ago
    Oh very "touche!"
- walshemj 13y ago
  No they will be hitting the duty free booze - you obviously haven't been around many Journalists :-) And probably trying to persuade their editors that they should stay on Cuba for a few days just in case nudge nudge
  - makomk 13y ago
    Apparently there's no booze served on the flight either. The journalists are very disappointed.

cpursley 13y ago

Funny how the prominent left politicians (not citizens) are coming out and showing who they really are: Neocons. The only thing 'deeply troubling' is that both sides are labeling a whistleblower as a 'leaker' and 'traitor' when all he's done is expose that U.S. citizens info is collected without warrants, a likely constitutional violation.

cema 13y ago
Neocons! Another one of those words. But words have meanings. Would you mind explaining how exactly they are neocons, other than you feel they are somewhat sinister?
- cpursley 13y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism
  - CWuestefeld 13y ago
    Indeed. I think that should make it clear that the Liberals aren't turning into neocons, and the Conservatives aren't turning into... well, whatever. I think you've just uncovered the fact that both parties are really just two sides of the same coin. It may appear that they're engaged in some kind of tug-of-war struggle, but if so, we are the rope. In fact, both DEMs and GOPs agree on the vast majority of issues, the only differences are in fine details. They're both quite happy with the form and function of today's government.
- dotcoma 13y ago
  In the French sense, perhaps. In French, "con" means idiot, so...
  - camus 13y ago
    it also means v*gina.

LandoCalrissian 13y ago

He may actually make it, which is amazing. This is probably the best outcome Snowden could have possibly hoped for.

smegel 13y ago

> A frustrated Secretary of State John F. Kerry said he was troubled by the apparent refusal of fellow world powers China and Russia to respond to espionage charges the United States had filed against Snowden, who leaked top-secret documents about U.S. surveillance programs. This is kind of a strange statement. On what grounds could/would China or Russia "respond to espionage charges" in the absence of extradition treaties with the US? Its also somewhat strange the US would expect any other country, especially these two, to care deeply about leaks against it that expose massive US/British spying against basically the whole world.

mikeash 13y ago
Extradition for espionage seems like it ought to be totally different from the regular kind. If a guy gunned down some children or something, sure, yell at anyone and everyone in sight to get him back. But why would you expect any non-allied country to give the slightest damn about espionage?
- kintamanimatt 13y ago
  Maybe they know this but perhaps they're just grandstanding in front of their electorate.
threeseed 13y ago
It's not strange if you follow the news. http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/zxxx/t1049546.shtml http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/zxxx/t1049546.shtml China's new President has made it a high priority to improve relations with the US which is why many were surprised Snowden was let out of HK quite so easily.
refurb 13y ago
You're taking Kerry's words WAY to literally. The US wanted Snowden and Russia said no, therefore the US had to respond. Kerry wasn't literally thinking "Oh my god! They said no! How dare they? What do you do now???" The US knew what the answer was going to be before they even asked the question.

rumcajz 13y ago

Hm. His passport was revoked. Reminds me of the communist era here in eastern Europe when people were not allowed to hold passports, unless the state decided that it's safe to let them travel abroad.

hispeedencrypt 13y ago

The tone of this article suggests Snowden is nothing more than a pawn in someone else's game. Why should anyone care so much about him? We've heard repeatedly that what he has disclosed - a massive amount of spying on Americans and other nationals - was already known by everyone. Who was that person who said: If you are worried about someone discovering your "secret" activities, then maybe you be doing those activities in the first place. Maybe the sooner politicians accept that "frictionless sharing" is the future, the better off we'll all be? What do you think? Other commenters have pointed out that most users outside HN do not care about data privacy. So why should politicians care? Are they a special case? I thought they represent the views of their constituents.

wf 13y ago

“It would be very disappointing if he was willfully allowed to board an airplane,” said Kerry, who was traveling in New Delhi. “There would be without any doubt . . . consequences.” [emphasis mine]. What is he insinuating by saying something cryptic like this?

nicholassmith 13y ago
It's standard sabre rattling. There's not a lot America could do to China or Russia to upset them, so it's pointless rattling of the political sabre to try and look tough on the big stage. Well, in my opinion anyway, unless Kerry means he's going to unleash a torrent of US cyberspooks to pwn their networks even more.

flyinRyan 13y ago

>He cited U.S. refusals to extradite bankers convicted in crimes in Ecuador, saying Quito was now free to exercise its “sovereignty” in the same way. Way to go Ecuador! >“There is no small irony here,” Kerry added, posing the hypothetical question of whether Snowden sought refuge in China and Russia “because they’re such powerful bastions of Internet freedom.” No sign of shame or embarrassment. Disgusting.

mistercow 13y ago

>“Ecuador puts its principles above its economic interests,” he said. Something about this statement made me wonder: is Ecuador just collecting political fugitives so that it can cut some nice deal with the US in the future? This isn't a country with a stellar human rights record. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with them accumulating a stable of high profile asylum-seeking bargaining chips.

schiffern 13y ago
>This isn't a country with a stellar human rights record. The same could be said of the US. Surely you know this. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/25/opinion/americas-shameful-human-rights-record.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/25/opinion/americas-shameful-... I assume when the US shelters human rights activists you will question its motives in a similar manner, no? Also, cute how you jump to that reasoning first. Surely there is no other reason a sovereign nation would need a bargaining chip with the USA.
- mistercow 13y ago
  >The same could be said of the US. Surely you know this. Yes, but the US has much bigger guns in the game of diplomatic bargaining than Ecuador - including actual guns. Handing over political refugees would be an unnecessary sacrifice of reputation for the US when there are so many other tools at its disposal. Other nations already mostly do whatever the US tells them to, and when they don't, a minor play like that wouldn't make a difference. Ecuador does not have such clout, so political refugees are a far more useful bargaining chip.
  - schiffern 13y ago
    Since when is the US "handing over" anyone?
    - mistercow 13y ago
      They aren't. I think you should reread my comment.

pvnick 13y ago

Kerry really comes off as a crybaby here

lucian1900 13y ago

> “The bottom line is very simple,” Schumer said. “Allies are supposed to treat each other in decent ways, and Putin always seems almost eager to put a finger in the eye of the United States, whether it is Syria, Iran and now, of course, with Snowden. That’s not how allies should treat one another, and I think it will have serious consequences for the United States-Russia relationship.” And spying on so many of the citizens of so many allies is somehow perfectly ok?

rmk2 13y ago
Well...Russia does seem a bit bitter about other spying incidents: http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=425431 http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=425431 So it's not just the spying on citizens, it's also the...uhm...spying in general.

graedus 13y ago

> [Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.)] added: “These are countries that violate press freedoms every day. And yet [Snowden]’s seeking political asylum in those very countries where . . . if he were to pull a Snowden in these countries, they’d jail him immediately.” ...exactly as the US has attempted to do, on trumped-up espionage charges no less? The _only_ reason that didn't happen in this case is because he learned from previous leakers and was smart enough to protect himself by fleeing the country beforehand.

hobbes 13y ago

This is ironic. Snowden is able to pass through Russian territory because, according to the law of Russia, it is allowed. This, says Mr Kerry, is deeply troubling. However, blanket monitoring of internet activity, which according to the law of the US, is allowed, is not deeply troubling?

angersock 13y ago

From a politics standpoint, this is really really poor diplomacy, giving a public tone which makes us look weak and forcing us into a position where the US looks servile to other countries. It's just sloppy. Why can't we have Clinton back as Secretary of State?

avn2109 13y ago

How is Snowden pulling this off? Can anyone elaborate on the balance of power that has allowed him to stay free and travel? This seems to be quite a feat, but I can't read between the lines enough to sort out why these foreign powers are staying out of his hair.

Sharlin 13y ago
What do you think would happen in the symmetrical situation where a Russian or Chinese whistleblower, exposing evidence of his respective country spying on the Americans, were to seek protection from the US? There's no chance the Yanks would just meekly accede to an extradition request.

redsymbol 13y ago

From the article: The flight from [Moscow] was packed with journalists who had purchased tickets believing that Snowden would be on the flight. It would be hilarious if Snowden and his companions tried to get seats on that flight, but could not, because it was already fully booked by these proactive journalists.

nakedrobot2 13y ago

These politicians are increasingly sounding desperate. Like the parents of a teenager who realize that their power is not limitless and is in fact evaporating.