9 ms·

Edward Snowden whereabouts unknown as US presses Russia

120 points by swombat 13y ago

arunitc 13y ago
"Meanwhile a planeload of journalists are now off to spend the day in Cuba"
- contingencies 13y ago
  Hahaha! That calls for another rum (or maybe a Cuba libre or Mojito). Cigar, anyone? Bottoms up!
  - filipncs 13y ago
    I'm afraid not: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/24/edward-snowden-booked-on-plane-from-moscow-to-havana-live-coverage#block-51c82222e4b0c1d5e990ab42 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/24/edward-snowden-b... 36m ago Apparently those poor journalists on the plane to Cuba can't even drown their sorrows ...
    - contingencies 13y ago
      Sure, no alcohol on some planes ... but I'm sure they'll get at least one night of debauched journo-drinking before having to fly back to their stations!
      - chaz 13y ago
        They'll get at least 2 nights: And worse (or, really, better?): Thanks to travel regulation in Cuba, they'll have to stay there three days before they'll be allowed to fly back. http://gawker.com/snowden-snow-job-leaker-fools-reporters-on-to-cuba-fli-555021969 http://gawker.com/snowden-snow-job-leaker-fools-reporters-on...
        verroq 13y ago
        This is the most hilarious turn of events so far.
Peroni 13y ago
It's pretty mind-boggling that thanks to the likes of twitter, we can actually see the seat he was meant to be sitting in as the plane is ready to take off - https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/349106511257161729/photo/1 https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/349106511257161729/phot...
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  "The seat he was meant to be sitting in" Did he actually have a ticket for this flight in his name? If not this is just a seat on a plane that a lot of incorrect people thought he would be on.
  - derda 13y ago
    I read yesterday that sources within the airport/airline confirmed that his name was on the passenger list. Also the cabin staff has a printed passenger-seat list, no doubt that in a plane full of journalists at least one of them will get a glimpse on it.
- ra 13y ago
  allegedly
crayola 13y ago
What I don't get is – all the journalists made it sound like he was definitely in Moscow yesterday, yet by the sound of it nobody actually saw him get on or out of the HK to Moscow plane? Is that not a huge journalism failure?
- Robin_Message 13y ago
  No, it's the wisdom of the crowd.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  I think the first they heard he was going to Moscow he was already on the flight. Then he was in the secure area of the airport so probably difficult to get to and find. Considering the number of journalists involved they definitely failed but I don't think as badly as it looks. Not to mention WikiLeaks 'confirmation' he was in Russia.
  - crayola 13y ago
    The guardian just posted a relevant update, 'How do we know Snowden was ever in Russia?', which essentially would be better titled 'Why we thought he was ever in Russia'. Sounds like it is quite possible that the whole Russia thing was an intentional diversion planted by Snowden / Wikileaks, to divert media and US official attention from the true destination..
cstross 13y ago
I thought it unlikely he'd fly via Cuba: the great circle route from Moscow flies much too close to US or Canadian airspace for my comfort, if I knew there was an Espionage Act warrant out for my arrest and the establishment wanted to make an example of me. ("Diversion due to technical issues" and an unscheduled stop at Gander in Newfoundland would totally ruin my day, even short of an intercept and diversion by F-15s over the Caribbean.) Just guessing here, but the real route (if Ecuador is in fact his destination) may be something like bizjet to Iceland, refuel, continue to somewhere in North Africa, refuel, then over the south Atlantic. And that's assuming he was ever in Moscow in the first place.
- Svip 13y ago
  Without being too confident, I think he is in Moscow, given all the evidence save for the fact that no third source has actually seen him there. It makes great sense he did not take the flight to Cuba he was expected to go on; I think he will take a flight suddenly and unexpected and to a country we did not consider. To avoid any presence of other nationals[0] and journalists on the flight. This will his plan all the way to his final destination. He might even at times move through means we did not consider (e.g. by train or car; under diplomatic protection, of course). [0] In particularly American officials.
  - k-mcgrady 13y ago
    Could it be possible that he requested asylum in Ecuador after in arriving in Moscow because he is trying to get them to transport him from Russia to Ecuador privately?
    - Svip 13y ago
      Possibly. It has been stated numerous times that he has advisers from Wikileaks on the plane, and they may have suggested this solution. I am confident that they also suggested him not to take the flight he was scheduled for.
- uvdiv 13y ago
  It actually overflies the US mainland today: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150 http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150 But on other days it goes nowhere near it: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150/history/20130620/1005Z/UUEE/MUHA http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150/history/20130620/1...
tallanvor 13y ago
One rumor is that he flew to Iceland via Oslo: http://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/3802-pirate-party-norway-snowden-passed-through-norway-to-iceland http://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/3802-pirate-party-norway-s...
- uvdiv 13y ago
  This rumor has a credibility problem: * The Oslo flight left only 20 minutes after the Hong Kong arrival * That route would involve four flights to reach Iceland (stopping in Moscow, Stockholm, and Oslo). The trip can be done in two: you don't need the Moscow or Oslo stops.
  - werid 13y ago
    Considering they claimed one of their sources was within wikileaks, it's likely it's part of a wikileaks/Snowden plan to obfuscate his real travel plans.
adaml_623 13y ago
This is the problem with the media today. Edward Snowden is not the story! The story is that the governments are illegally bugging people. They are not stopping the terrorists (Woolwich/Boston). They are harassing legitimate activists. They are not serving the people they are meant to represent. EDIT: And of course we, the general public, are not free of responsibility either for the media choosing to cover the personal interest story rather than getting their teeth into the politicians who might improve things.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  The Guardian has been releasing the information Snowden has given them and been reporting on it daily for weeks. There are several news companies that have been doing the same. The problem is that most people are more interested in Snowden (people are always drawn to the human aspect of a story) and that's why he is now getting so much attention.
  - siddboots 13y ago
    > people are always drawn to the human aspect of a story It's not just that. Snowden is staying in the news because his story has had developments. If it keeps "NSA" in the headlines for another week or so, I am more than happy to have The Guardian report on every move he makes.
- stonemetal 13y ago
  I don't know, I find the fact that my government has singled out an individual to harass and torment unfairly an interesting story. edit: Also most of the spying program is secret. I think I have heard reports detailing most of what he has released. I have heard several reports on the secret court. There just isn't that much information available as it is all classified.
- dchest 13y ago
  How is a person trying to avoid being captured by US not a story?
lignuist 13y ago
He will probably make a fortune by selling the story to Hollywood.
- segmondy 13y ago
  Hollywood can make the story without his side, they have enough info. You can bet, a hundred people are furiously and actively penning their scripts regarding this.
JonnieCache 13y ago
Ecuadorian Foreign Minister: I will give a press conference at 7 pm. in Melia hotel, Hanoi. https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/statuses/349055771419480065 https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/statuses/349055771419480... Vietnam! The plot thickens! I feel an urge to stick bits of string onto a map with push pins. EDIT: btw 7pm in vietnam is basically now.
- uvdiv 13y ago
  Which time zone? It's 7 PM in Hanoi. (reply to edit: it's 7 AM in Ecuador)
  - JonnieCache 13y ago
    Yeah sorry I got confused, busy trying to find a paper map and some pins, and a maybe load of little aeroplanes and CIA figurines and one of those poker-chip-shoving thingies. If you look at the above-linked twitter feed, he's talking about it being 5 minutes from now. Imminent basically.
- macleanjr 13y ago
  "In five minutes, press briefing on visit to Vietnam and the case Snowden, from Hanoi, the capital of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam" - @RicardoPatinoEC
- mdelias 13y ago
  BBC may have a live stream up once he starts talking: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23032328 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23032328 Edit: It's live
- uvdiv 13y ago
  Vietnam! The plot thickens! I doubt Vietnam is relevant here. This visit was announced a week ago: http://talkvietnam.com/2013/06/top-ecuador-diplomat-to-visit-vietnam/ http://talkvietnam.com/2013/06/top-ecuador-diplomat-to-visit... "Vietnam will be Patino’s second stopover during his Asian tour. Besides Vietnam, he will visit the Republic of Korea, Malaysia, and Singapore."
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
pinaceae 13y ago
...and nobody gives a shit about Bradley Manning anymore, the nerdrage industry has already moved on. the "real" story should be how seemingly easy it is to get into NSA systems. billions of dollars in security and they failed to notice what this guy was accessing/downloading. assume for every Snowden there are at least 5 real spies in it for the money.
- davidw 13y ago
  Manning basically dumped a whole lot of private data, rather than reveal one specific and very "unamerican" program. He's probably getting treated worse than he ought to, but I don't know if I really see him as a whistleblower in the same way I see Snowden.
  - oleganza 13y ago
    Manning dumped a whole lot of private data concerning killers who are funded by billions of printed and confiscated money from you, who then kill much less powerful people overseas, making everyone angry up to the point to provoke more and more terrorism acts against (surprise!) you again. So you've been: 1. Robbed via taxation. 2. Robbed via inflation. 3. Left without any voice via complex bureaucratic system and multi-level censorship (licenses, regulations, "chilling effect" threats etc). 4. Bombed by people being angry that your government bombed theirs. 5. If you try to speak about it out loud, you'd be kicked, threatened, laughed at etc. And if NSA collects info on you, they'll use all that info about your public activity to manipulate you if needed. All that while you yourself had neither intentionally, nor accidentally hurt anyone around you or anywhere in the world. I think Manning deserves zero torture while everyone who tries to punish what he uncovered deserve all the blame and blacklisting from civilized society: courts, senators, president, all of army and police. Everyone who professionally kicks asses of normal people to get paid for kicking even more asses.
    - aceofspades19 13y ago
      On 2., if you have studied any economic theory, you would know that in the long run the real value of goods and wages stays the same, its only the nominal value that changes in the long run. So no, you have not been 'robbed' via inflation, and thats silly to say anyways because inflation affects everyone.
gexla 13y ago
Maybe he is clinging to the landing gear Bruce Willis style. With all this mess, I wouldn't be surprised to wake up tomorrow to see "Snowden says 'screw it, take me back to Hong Kong.'" Unless this is all some very well orchestrated smoke screen, it must be crazy stressful. Maybe he should just parachute out and take his time to figure out what to do in international waters.
balabaster 13y ago
Is anybody else watching this with glee? This is the stuff movies are made of. The school yard bully who has been tolerated for years is finally being put in its place. "Oh shit, Snowden poked you in the eye? Maybe if you didn't spend so much of your time bullying everyone else, he wouldn't have done that... P.S. if you want him, you're gonna have to go through all of us... we're not putting up with your shit any more either."
- agilebyte 13y ago
  Yeah, imagine a "what if" movie where Snowden is on the Aeroflot flight from Moscow. You have journalists and secret agents on the plane. Some agents try to talk sense into him, others try to block them (no weapons allowed so they resort to slapping each other), journalists snapping pics and posting stuff on Twitter. All the while the plane is closer and closer to NATO airspace with trigger-happy generals. At the same time you have maybe 5 people on the plane that don't know what is going on and actually want to fly to Cuba (for a vacation say). And, there is no alcohol on board...
chrislaco 13y ago
It's called misdirection. Leak that you're leaving Hk, via Russia, via Cuba. That take a completely different route. Tradecrafty.

120 points by swombat 13y ago

arunitc 13y ago

"Meanwhile a planeload of journalists are now off to spend the day in Cuba"

contingencies 13y ago
Hahaha! That calls for another rum (or maybe a Cuba libre or Mojito). Cigar, anyone? Bottoms up!
- filipncs 13y ago
  I'm afraid not: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/24/edward-snowden-booked-on-plane-from-moscow-to-havana-live-coverage#block-51c82222e4b0c1d5e990ab42 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/24/edward-snowden-b... 36m ago Apparently those poor journalists on the plane to Cuba can't even drown their sorrows ...
  - contingencies 13y ago
    Sure, no alcohol on some planes ... but I'm sure they'll get at least one night of debauched journo-drinking before having to fly back to their stations!
    - chaz 13y ago
      They'll get at least 2 nights: And worse (or, really, better?): Thanks to travel regulation in Cuba, they'll have to stay there three days before they'll be allowed to fly back. http://gawker.com/snowden-snow-job-leaker-fools-reporters-on-to-cuba-fli-555021969 http://gawker.com/snowden-snow-job-leaker-fools-reporters-on...
      - verroq 13y ago
        This is the most hilarious turn of events so far.

Peroni 13y ago

It's pretty mind-boggling that thanks to the likes of twitter, we can actually see the seat he was meant to be sitting in as the plane is ready to take off - https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/349106511257161729/photo/1 https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/349106511257161729/phot...

k-mcgrady 13y ago
"The seat he was meant to be sitting in" Did he actually have a ticket for this flight in his name? If not this is just a seat on a plane that a lot of incorrect people thought he would be on.
- derda 13y ago
  I read yesterday that sources within the airport/airline confirmed that his name was on the passenger list. Also the cabin staff has a printed passenger-seat list, no doubt that in a plane full of journalists at least one of them will get a glimpse on it.
ra 13y ago
allegedly

crayola 13y ago

What I don't get is – all the journalists made it sound like he was definitely in Moscow yesterday, yet by the sound of it nobody actually saw him get on or out of the HK to Moscow plane? Is that not a huge journalism failure?

Robin_Message 13y ago
No, it's the wisdom of the crowd.
k-mcgrady 13y ago
I think the first they heard he was going to Moscow he was already on the flight. Then he was in the secure area of the airport so probably difficult to get to and find. Considering the number of journalists involved they definitely failed but I don't think as badly as it looks. Not to mention WikiLeaks 'confirmation' he was in Russia.
- crayola 13y ago
  The guardian just posted a relevant update, 'How do we know Snowden was ever in Russia?', which essentially would be better titled 'Why we thought he was ever in Russia'. Sounds like it is quite possible that the whole Russia thing was an intentional diversion planted by Snowden / Wikileaks, to divert media and US official attention from the true destination..

cstross 13y ago

I thought it unlikely he'd fly via Cuba: the great circle route from Moscow flies much too close to US or Canadian airspace for my comfort, if I knew there was an Espionage Act warrant out for my arrest and the establishment wanted to make an example of me. ("Diversion due to technical issues" and an unscheduled stop at Gander in Newfoundland would totally ruin my day, even short of an intercept and diversion by F-15s over the Caribbean.) Just guessing here, but the real route (if Ecuador is in fact his destination) may be something like bizjet to Iceland, refuel, continue to somewhere in North Africa, refuel, then over the south Atlantic. And that's assuming he was ever in Moscow in the first place.

Svip 13y ago
Without being too confident, I think he is in Moscow, given all the evidence save for the fact that no third source has actually seen him there. It makes great sense he did not take the flight to Cuba he was expected to go on; I think he will take a flight suddenly and unexpected and to a country we did not consider. To avoid any presence of other nationals[0] and journalists on the flight. This will his plan all the way to his final destination. He might even at times move through means we did not consider (e.g. by train or car; under diplomatic protection, of course). [0] In particularly American officials.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  Could it be possible that he requested asylum in Ecuador after in arriving in Moscow because he is trying to get them to transport him from Russia to Ecuador privately?
  - Svip 13y ago
    Possibly. It has been stated numerous times that he has advisers from Wikileaks on the plane, and they may have suggested this solution. I am confident that they also suggested him not to take the flight he was scheduled for.
uvdiv 13y ago
It actually overflies the US mainland today: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150 http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150 But on other days it goes nowhere near it: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150/history/20130620/1005Z/UUEE/MUHA http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150/history/20130620/1...

tallanvor 13y ago

One rumor is that he flew to Iceland via Oslo: http://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/3802-pirate-party-norway-snowden-passed-through-norway-to-iceland http://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/3802-pirate-party-norway-s...

uvdiv 13y ago
This rumor has a credibility problem: * The Oslo flight left only 20 minutes after the Hong Kong arrival * That route would involve four flights to reach Iceland (stopping in Moscow, Stockholm, and Oslo). The trip can be done in two: you don't need the Moscow or Oslo stops.
- werid 13y ago
  Considering they claimed one of their sources was within wikileaks, it's likely it's part of a wikileaks/Snowden plan to obfuscate his real travel plans.

adaml_623 13y ago

This is the problem with the media today. Edward Snowden is not the story! The story is that the governments are illegally bugging people. They are not stopping the terrorists (Woolwich/Boston). They are harassing legitimate activists. They are not serving the people they are meant to represent. EDIT: And of course we, the general public, are not free of responsibility either for the media choosing to cover the personal interest story rather than getting their teeth into the politicians who might improve things.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
k-mcgrady 13y ago
The Guardian has been releasing the information Snowden has given them and been reporting on it daily for weeks. There are several news companies that have been doing the same. The problem is that most people are more interested in Snowden (people are always drawn to the human aspect of a story) and that's why he is now getting so much attention.
- siddboots 13y ago
  > people are always drawn to the human aspect of a story It's not just that. Snowden is staying in the news because his story has had developments. If it keeps "NSA" in the headlines for another week or so, I am more than happy to have The Guardian report on every move he makes.
stonemetal 13y ago
I don't know, I find the fact that my government has singled out an individual to harass and torment unfairly an interesting story. edit: Also most of the spying program is secret. I think I have heard reports detailing most of what he has released. I have heard several reports on the secret court. There just isn't that much information available as it is all classified.
dchest 13y ago
How is a person trying to avoid being captured by US not a story?

lignuist 13y ago

He will probably make a fortune by selling the story to Hollywood.

segmondy 13y ago
Hollywood can make the story without his side, they have enough info. You can bet, a hundred people are furiously and actively penning their scripts regarding this.

JonnieCache 13y ago

Ecuadorian Foreign Minister: I will give a press conference at 7 pm. in Melia hotel, Hanoi. https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/statuses/349055771419480065 https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/statuses/349055771419480... Vietnam! The plot thickens! I feel an urge to stick bits of string onto a map with push pins. EDIT: btw 7pm in vietnam is basically now.

uvdiv 13y ago
Which time zone? It's 7 PM in Hanoi. (reply to edit: it's 7 AM in Ecuador)
- JonnieCache 13y ago
  Yeah sorry I got confused, busy trying to find a paper map and some pins, and a maybe load of little aeroplanes and CIA figurines and one of those poker-chip-shoving thingies. If you look at the above-linked twitter feed, he's talking about it being 5 minutes from now. Imminent basically.
macleanjr 13y ago
"In five minutes, press briefing on visit to Vietnam and the case Snowden, from Hanoi, the capital of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam" - @RicardoPatinoEC
mdelias 13y ago
BBC may have a live stream up once he starts talking: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23032328 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23032328 Edit: It's live
uvdiv 13y ago
Vietnam! The plot thickens! I doubt Vietnam is relevant here. This visit was announced a week ago: http://talkvietnam.com/2013/06/top-ecuador-diplomat-to-visit-vietnam/ http://talkvietnam.com/2013/06/top-ecuador-diplomat-to-visit... "Vietnam will be Patino’s second stopover during his Asian tour. Besides Vietnam, he will visit the Republic of Korea, Malaysia, and Singapore."

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

pinaceae 13y ago

...and nobody gives a shit about Bradley Manning anymore, the nerdrage industry has already moved on. the "real" story should be how seemingly easy it is to get into NSA systems. billions of dollars in security and they failed to notice what this guy was accessing/downloading. assume for every Snowden there are at least 5 real spies in it for the money.

davidw 13y ago
Manning basically dumped a whole lot of private data, rather than reveal one specific and very "unamerican" program. He's probably getting treated worse than he ought to, but I don't know if I really see him as a whistleblower in the same way I see Snowden.
- oleganza 13y ago
  Manning dumped a whole lot of private data concerning killers who are funded by billions of printed and confiscated money from you, who then kill much less powerful people overseas, making everyone angry up to the point to provoke more and more terrorism acts against (surprise!) you again. So you've been: 1. Robbed via taxation. 2. Robbed via inflation. 3. Left without any voice via complex bureaucratic system and multi-level censorship (licenses, regulations, "chilling effect" threats etc). 4. Bombed by people being angry that your government bombed theirs. 5. If you try to speak about it out loud, you'd be kicked, threatened, laughed at etc. And if NSA collects info on you, they'll use all that info about your public activity to manipulate you if needed. All that while you yourself had neither intentionally, nor accidentally hurt anyone around you or anywhere in the world. I think Manning deserves zero torture while everyone who tries to punish what he uncovered deserve all the blame and blacklisting from civilized society: courts, senators, president, all of army and police. Everyone who professionally kicks asses of normal people to get paid for kicking even more asses.
  - aceofspades19 13y ago
    On 2., if you have studied any economic theory, you would know that in the long run the real value of goods and wages stays the same, its only the nominal value that changes in the long run. So no, you have not been 'robbed' via inflation, and thats silly to say anyways because inflation affects everyone.

gexla 13y ago

Maybe he is clinging to the landing gear Bruce Willis style. With all this mess, I wouldn't be surprised to wake up tomorrow to see "Snowden says 'screw it, take me back to Hong Kong.'" Unless this is all some very well orchestrated smoke screen, it must be crazy stressful. Maybe he should just parachute out and take his time to figure out what to do in international waters.

balabaster 13y ago

Is anybody else watching this with glee? This is the stuff movies are made of. The school yard bully who has been tolerated for years is finally being put in its place. "Oh shit, Snowden poked you in the eye? Maybe if you didn't spend so much of your time bullying everyone else, he wouldn't have done that... P.S. if you want him, you're gonna have to go through all of us... we're not putting up with your shit any more either."

agilebyte 13y ago
Yeah, imagine a "what if" movie where Snowden is on the Aeroflot flight from Moscow. You have journalists and secret agents on the plane. Some agents try to talk sense into him, others try to block them (no weapons allowed so they resort to slapping each other), journalists snapping pics and posting stuff on Twitter. All the while the plane is closer and closer to NATO airspace with trigger-happy generals. At the same time you have maybe 5 people on the plane that don't know what is going on and actually want to fly to Cuba (for a vacation say). And, there is no alcohol on board...

chrislaco 13y ago

It's called misdirection. Leak that you're leaving Hk, via Russia, via Cuba. That take a completely different route. Tradecrafty.