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Yeah, I have heard of that narrative; Steinbeck did say “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat bu

by eshvk 13y ago

Yeah, I have heard of that narrative; Steinbeck did say “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”. I still find it patronizing; it is reductive. The model assumes a caricature of a poor man who votes for slavery in the hope of owning a slave one day. Maybe, he just doesn't like black people? Maybe, he worries that his precarious job will be lost by new competition? Maybe, Colonel George from the plantation threatened him if he votes for abolition?

flyinRyan 13y ago
Interesting that not a single one of your proposed counter-options is any nicer than the one you dislike.
- eshvk 13y ago
  You are missing the point; I don't dislike or like any of the reasons. I am merely pointing out that a simplistic model is crude.
VLM 13y ago
All so close, seeing the trees, but not the forest. HN is pretty good at programming and startups, but even the shortest expedition into history gets even the most amateur historians all wound up and LOL. The fundamental problem was regionalism and federalism vs states rights. Not talked about for obvious political reasons now a days because that would bring up obvious difficult questions... All the issues mentioned were trees in the forest being fought over as PR fodder for the bigger issue of the south wanted to be the south and didn't want some yankee telling them anything, even if the yankee was correct. Extreme stubbornness on both sides. Then the war of northern aggression started because the southerners told the northerners to F off and leave them alone too many times. If you could have magically removed slavery and plantations from the history of the south and reinsert another set of trees like space alien contact and medieval era 3-d printers, the forest would remain and the civil war would have been fought more or less the same way over PLA vs ABS figurines of intellectually protected property of images of space aliens or something. The Trees Just Don't Matter (compared to the forest) To some extent I believe this comes from the HN population consisting of many unmarried people. Trust me, once you get married you can bicker over stuff that has nothing to do with the real issue all day if you want.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  I'm very aware of the reasons the North actually went to war. It was, incidentally, that southern stubbornness that lost the South the war since France would have almost certainly come in on their side (and from the Northern front where Grant couldn't have hoped to deal with them) had Robert E. Lee been half as smart as Lincoln and simply claimed they wanted to be a separate country. But you can't ignore the slavery though. Without it, there would have been no wealth in the south worth going to war for (nor enough resources to support succession).

by eshvk 13y ago

flyinRyan 13y ago

Interesting that not a single one of your proposed counter-options is any nicer than the one you dislike.

eshvk 13y ago
You are missing the point; I don't dislike or like any of the reasons. I am merely pointing out that a simplistic model is crude.

VLM 13y ago

All so close, seeing the trees, but not the forest. HN is pretty good at programming and startups, but even the shortest expedition into history gets even the most amateur historians all wound up and LOL. The fundamental problem was regionalism and federalism vs states rights. Not talked about for obvious political reasons now a days because that would bring up obvious difficult questions... All the issues mentioned were trees in the forest being fought over as PR fodder for the bigger issue of the south wanted to be the south and didn't want some yankee telling them anything, even if the yankee was correct. Extreme stubbornness on both sides. Then the war of northern aggression started because the southerners told the northerners to F off and leave them alone too many times. If you could have magically removed slavery and plantations from the history of the south and reinsert another set of trees like space alien contact and medieval era 3-d printers, the forest would remain and the civil war would have been fought more or less the same way over PLA vs ABS figurines of intellectually protected property of images of space aliens or something. The Trees Just Don't Matter (compared to the forest) To some extent I believe this comes from the HN population consisting of many unmarried people. Trust me, once you get married you can bicker over stuff that has nothing to do with the real issue all day if you want.

flyinRyan 13y ago
I'm very aware of the reasons the North actually went to war. It was, incidentally, that southern stubbornness that lost the South the war since France would have almost certainly come in on their side (and from the Northern front where Grant couldn't have hoped to deal with them) had Robert E. Lee been half as smart as Lincoln and simply claimed they wanted to be a separate country. But you can't ignore the slavery though. Without it, there would have been no wealth in the south worth going to war for (nor enough resources to support succession).