4 ms·

The people I talk with about this, who also have the technical acumen to build these things, or those with the political connections to drive change, are both g

The people I talk with about this, who also have the technical acumen to build these things, or those with the political connections to drive change, are both groups of people who have known this level of spying has been going on through their lifetimes, and are unconcerned. The response on HN has been an order of magnitude larger than the response from any person I know. Of everyone I know, I'm more concerned about the NSA spying than anyone else, and I'm less concerned than most commenters. I begin to wonder if this isn't some kind of nerd-sniping paranoia-groupthink.

flyinRyan 13y ago
People's feelings about something is an irrelevant metric. It doesn't fucking matter if no one is concerned. There are plenty of past disasters and tragedies that happened because no one was concerned.
- stephengillie 13y ago
  If other people aren't worried about it, why should I be?
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    Because other people are clueless and apathetic?
  - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
    If other people litter, why shouldn't I? If other people forgo vaccinations, why shouldn't I? If other people are just following orders, why shouldn't I?
    - stephengillie 13y ago
      But other people do not litter. Others do get their kids vaccinated, regardless of what the vocal antivox minority says. Why are the others just following orders -- what are the orders like? If all of your friends were jumping off of a bridge, why wouldn't you? If you don't trust them in what they do, why are they your friends?
      - jtheory 13y ago
        http://xkcd.com/1170/ http://xkcd.com/1170/
        stephengillie 13y ago
        This xkcd inspired me
    - jtheory 13y ago
      As a human adult, you are probably capable of making moral judgements, and making limited predictions about how your actions will affect you & others in the future. The minority of people who litter make the experience of walking/living/sitting in that area less pleasant for everyone else, and they increase the likelihood that others will litter ("this park is already full of trash; should I really go chasing after that wrapper that fell?"). Alternatively, you could not make it worse, or you could even make it better by picking up a few things and throwing them out as you pass through. The minority who don't vaccinate encourage others to avoid vaccinations, and it doesn't take very many of them to undercut or even nullify the benefits of population vaccination (like protecting newborns who can't yet be vaccinated). Etc. etc.. Do you want to be worse, meaner, less moral, etc. than the average? Or do you want to strive for a little more than that in life? Realistically, most of us aren't going to have a huge positive or negative impact on the world; but thinking locally, if you are going to seek a mate, friendships, etc., you'll probably do better (and be happier) in life if you at least try to do better than the average. You may even get an opportunity to make a seriously good decision somewhere along the way, if you have good moral habits and keep your wits about you.
- jtheory 13y ago
  Your third sentence is a pretty effective rebuttal for the first two...?
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    No, I'm saying no one cared then and disater or tragedy struck anyway. There is little correlation about how we feel vs. what happens to us.
    - jtheory 13y ago
      Obviously not caring doesn't accomplish anything, because people who don't care about something won't act. But if people do care about something, they are motivated to act, and may significantly alter the course of what happens -- not always, and not always as they wanted, but even a small number of motivated people can make serious waves, depending on their skill, charisma, cleverness, opportunity, etc.. Hence, what we feel matters.
mtgx 13y ago
Most people aren't "visionaries" or aren't as good at "connecting the dots" as the NSA likes to say. They live their lives in the present - today. Does the NSA spying affect them today? If not, then they aren't concerned about it. But that's a very wrong way to approach things. You have to connect the dots and see where this is going, before it's too late to do anything to stop it. Plus, I bet most don't even realize that even if authorities don't come knocking at their door because through their spying they saw they downloaded that last Game of Thrones episode (how long until that happens, anyway?), they could still use the spying to influence judges, politicians, mayors, and so on - which will affect their day to day lives, depending on the decisions those people take through blackmail. But as I said, most people can't connect the dots like that. Ignorance is a bliss, as they say.
- stephengillie 13y ago
  You make a very good point. I was looking for someone to make this point to me, but I didn't know that when I made the post. The first and easiest argument to make about this is the chilling effect it will have on journalism -- even some things that are unclassified and should be public knowledge can be prosecuted as whistle-blowing.

flyinRyan 13y ago

People's feelings about something is an irrelevant metric. It doesn't fucking matter if no one is concerned. There are plenty of past disasters and tragedies that happened because no one was concerned.

stephengillie 13y ago
If other people aren't worried about it, why should I be?
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  Because other people are clueless and apathetic?
- AnthonyMouse 13y ago
  If other people litter, why shouldn't I? If other people forgo vaccinations, why shouldn't I? If other people are just following orders, why shouldn't I?
  - stephengillie 13y ago
    But other people do not litter. Others do get their kids vaccinated, regardless of what the vocal antivox minority says. Why are the others just following orders -- what are the orders like? If all of your friends were jumping off of a bridge, why wouldn't you? If you don't trust them in what they do, why are they your friends?
    - jtheory 13y ago
      http://xkcd.com/1170/ http://xkcd.com/1170/
      - stephengillie 13y ago
        This xkcd inspired me
  - jtheory 13y ago
    As a human adult, you are probably capable of making moral judgements, and making limited predictions about how your actions will affect you & others in the future. The minority of people who litter make the experience of walking/living/sitting in that area less pleasant for everyone else, and they increase the likelihood that others will litter ("this park is already full of trash; should I really go chasing after that wrapper that fell?"). Alternatively, you could not make it worse, or you could even make it better by picking up a few things and throwing them out as you pass through. The minority who don't vaccinate encourage others to avoid vaccinations, and it doesn't take very many of them to undercut or even nullify the benefits of population vaccination (like protecting newborns who can't yet be vaccinated). Etc. etc.. Do you want to be worse, meaner, less moral, etc. than the average? Or do you want to strive for a little more than that in life? Realistically, most of us aren't going to have a huge positive or negative impact on the world; but thinking locally, if you are going to seek a mate, friendships, etc., you'll probably do better (and be happier) in life if you at least try to do better than the average. You may even get an opportunity to make a seriously good decision somewhere along the way, if you have good moral habits and keep your wits about you.
jtheory 13y ago
Your third sentence is a pretty effective rebuttal for the first two...?
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  No, I'm saying no one cared then and disater or tragedy struck anyway. There is little correlation about how we feel vs. what happens to us.
  - jtheory 13y ago
    Obviously not caring doesn't accomplish anything, because people who don't care about something won't act. But if people do care about something, they are motivated to act, and may significantly alter the course of what happens -- not always, and not always as they wanted, but even a small number of motivated people can make serious waves, depending on their skill, charisma, cleverness, opportunity, etc.. Hence, what we feel matters.

mtgx 13y ago

Most people aren't "visionaries" or aren't as good at "connecting the dots" as the NSA likes to say. They live their lives in the present - today. Does the NSA spying affect them today? If not, then they aren't concerned about it. But that's a very wrong way to approach things. You have to connect the dots and see where this is going, before it's too late to do anything to stop it. Plus, I bet most don't even realize that even if authorities don't come knocking at their door because through their spying they saw they downloaded that last Game of Thrones episode (how long until that happens, anyway?), they could still use the spying to influence judges, politicians, mayors, and so on - which will affect their day to day lives, depending on the decisions those people take through blackmail. But as I said, most people can't connect the dots like that. Ignorance is a bliss, as they say.

stephengillie 13y ago
You make a very good point. I was looking for someone to make this point to me, but I didn't know that when I made the post. The first and easiest argument to make about this is the chilling effect it will have on journalism -- even some things that are unclassified and should be public knowledge can be prosecuted as whistle-blowing.