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Meanwhile there is a smugness that goes along with purely technical training, a certainty that its way is the only valuable way, that calls itself education but

Meanwhile there is a smugness that goes along with purely technical training, a certainty that its way is the only valuable way, that calls itself education but whose true name is Philistinism It's funny that you use the term 'smugness', as that's exactly the feeling I got while reading your post. There's just something telling about a person who calls others Philistines.

newbie12 13y ago
From Wikipedia: "philistinism describes the social attitude of anti-intellectualism that undervalues and despises art, beauty, spirituality, and intellect; ‘the manners, habits, and character, or mode of thinking of a philistine’.[1] A philistine person is the man or woman who is smugly narrow of mind and of conventional morality whose materialistic views and tastes indicate a lack of and indifference to cultural and æsthetic values.[2]"
jmduke 13y ago
If we define 'purely technical training' as that which eschews any education that doesn't specifically further one's career or technical abilities, I think an accusation of anti-intellectualism is apt. That being said, 'Philistine' is a pretty broad term that means like fifty different things, and its one of the words where saying it or writing it out loud always provokes the same response as pronouncing 'mature' with a hard t. (For what it's worth, I do think there's an echo chamber of STEM 'superiority', absolutely present on HN but more so on Reddit and Slashdot.)
- gruseom 13y ago
  Does it mean fifty different things, though? I'd say its definition is pretty precise. I didn't realize that anyone still used the word, let alone that there was a category, "the kind of person who says 'philistine'". It reminds me of Louis CK's thing about people who say "People from Phoenix are called 'Phoenicians'". Not a category one would knowingly step into!
  - abraininavat 13y ago
    Such a category does indeed exist. It happens to intersect with the category of people who purposefully use words they think no one else uses.
    - gruseom 13y ago
      I do like old words, especially when they fit a particular concept in just the right way. But wow, your comments are really insinuating. "There's just something telling". "People who purposefully". "The lack of nuance in your understanding". I was interested in your point of view, but I'm finding this unpleasant and am going to stop now.
      - abraininavat 13y ago
        You seem to have a thin skin. The only of those phrases which is "insinuating" anything is the first. You've mentioned something about personal insults but have failed to point one out. Unless you're suggesting I shouldn't point out that you don't fully understand the old word you're using? That's not an insult so shake it off and don't take it as one. You've got the term wrong. I agree that maybe we could have a great conversation about it, if only you'd address it instead of whining about the phrase "lack of nuance in your understanding." It's not exactly Don Rickles material.
gruseom 13y ago
There's just something telling about a person who calls others Philistines Others? I'm talking about an attitude. (I even checked http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/philistine http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/philistine to make sure I had the word right.) If you don't think that attitude dominates our age, we must move in different circles. In the world I live in, "education" and "job training" are synonyms. It's funny that you use the term 'smugness', as that's exactly the feeling I got while reading your post. Oh dear. That's not good. Well, it's hard to see oneself accurately. I will say that my comment comes from long and hard experience ending in failure.
- abraininavat 13y ago
  The idea that people were more culturally aware, more intellectual, or less materialistic at any time in our past compared to now is naive. If you don't think there were economic or social/political ambitions in the hearts of the young, wealthy men reciting Homer at Oxford a few hundred years ago, or even in those of young, wealthy Athenian boys lucky enough to attend secondary school, then I think you've succumbed to the Golden Age Fallacy (not to imply any sort of deductive or formal fallacy). Furthermore, the idea that an engineering major is in any way less intellectual than an English major is ridiculous. And if that's not what you meant by the term "Philistine", then I suggest you pay more attention to the spirit of its definition less to the letter. A Philistine was once upon a time a person who had never studied philosophy, but this as only the case because every student once studied philosophy.
sk5t 13y ago
I'd say the parent comment is right on target, given the understanding that "Philistine" is not a synonym for "ignorant." There is no essential smugness in observing that students who know little philosophy, art, history, or discourse tend to consider them so much hogwash.
- abraininavat 13y ago
  A Philistine is an anti-intellectual or a non-intellectual -- a person with a materialistic frame of mind, lacking the education, intelligence, or will to focus on ideas rather than things. To suggest that a Philistine is a person who is ignorant strictly of "philosophy, art, history, or discourse" is to ignore that, when the term came about, those subjects were a huge part of every curriculum. We've moved on since then and have expanded and re-categorized our domains of knowledge. A technology-oriented education certainly doesn't imply any kind of Philistinism, despite the lack of nuance in your understanding of the term.
  - gruseom 13y ago
    No, it doesn't just mean anti-intellectual. It's specifically about culture, and has always included the inability to appreciate (or hostility toward) the values conveyed by art and literature. You don't get to change what words mean, and as someone who just accused me of unduly criticizing others, you might want to avoid personal insults for a spell.
    - abraininavat 13y ago
      And you don't get to close your eyes to the fact that things have changed. "Philistine" was synonymous with "ignorant of art and literature" only because every formal education was full or art and literature. Furthermore, much of what we today consider science was once a large part of the "art" of "philosophy". As I've said in another comment, you've completely blinded yourself to the spirit of the term and taken the most literal definition. If Computer Scientists existed in Jonathan Swift's day, he most certainly would not have lumped them in with the Philistines.
    - 13y ago

newbie12 13y ago

From Wikipedia: "philistinism describes the social attitude of anti-intellectualism that undervalues and despises art, beauty, spirituality, and intellect; ‘the manners, habits, and character, or mode of thinking of a philistine’.[1] A philistine person is the man or woman who is smugly narrow of mind and of conventional morality whose materialistic views and tastes indicate a lack of and indifference to cultural and æsthetic values.[2]"

jmduke 13y ago

If we define 'purely technical training' as that which eschews any education that doesn't specifically further one's career or technical abilities, I think an accusation of anti-intellectualism is apt. That being said, 'Philistine' is a pretty broad term that means like fifty different things, and its one of the words where saying it or writing it out loud always provokes the same response as pronouncing 'mature' with a hard t. (For what it's worth, I do think there's an echo chamber of STEM 'superiority', absolutely present on HN but more so on Reddit and Slashdot.)

gruseom 13y ago
Does it mean fifty different things, though? I'd say its definition is pretty precise. I didn't realize that anyone still used the word, let alone that there was a category, "the kind of person who says 'philistine'". It reminds me of Louis CK's thing about people who say "People from Phoenix are called 'Phoenicians'". Not a category one would knowingly step into!
- abraininavat 13y ago
  Such a category does indeed exist. It happens to intersect with the category of people who purposefully use words they think no one else uses.
  - gruseom 13y ago
    I do like old words, especially when they fit a particular concept in just the right way. But wow, your comments are really insinuating. "There's just something telling". "People who purposefully". "The lack of nuance in your understanding". I was interested in your point of view, but I'm finding this unpleasant and am going to stop now.
    - abraininavat 13y ago
      You seem to have a thin skin. The only of those phrases which is "insinuating" anything is the first. You've mentioned something about personal insults but have failed to point one out. Unless you're suggesting I shouldn't point out that you don't fully understand the old word you're using? That's not an insult so shake it off and don't take it as one. You've got the term wrong. I agree that maybe we could have a great conversation about it, if only you'd address it instead of whining about the phrase "lack of nuance in your understanding." It's not exactly Don Rickles material.

gruseom 13y ago

There's just something telling about a person who calls others Philistines Others? I'm talking about an attitude. (I even checked http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/philistine http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/philistine to make sure I had the word right.) If you don't think that attitude dominates our age, we must move in different circles. In the world I live in, "education" and "job training" are synonyms. It's funny that you use the term 'smugness', as that's exactly the feeling I got while reading your post. Oh dear. That's not good. Well, it's hard to see oneself accurately. I will say that my comment comes from long and hard experience ending in failure.

abraininavat 13y ago
The idea that people were more culturally aware, more intellectual, or less materialistic at any time in our past compared to now is naive. If you don't think there were economic or social/political ambitions in the hearts of the young, wealthy men reciting Homer at Oxford a few hundred years ago, or even in those of young, wealthy Athenian boys lucky enough to attend secondary school, then I think you've succumbed to the Golden Age Fallacy (not to imply any sort of deductive or formal fallacy). Furthermore, the idea that an engineering major is in any way less intellectual than an English major is ridiculous. And if that's not what you meant by the term "Philistine", then I suggest you pay more attention to the spirit of its definition less to the letter. A Philistine was once upon a time a person who had never studied philosophy, but this as only the case because every student once studied philosophy.

sk5t 13y ago

I'd say the parent comment is right on target, given the understanding that "Philistine" is not a synonym for "ignorant." There is no essential smugness in observing that students who know little philosophy, art, history, or discourse tend to consider them so much hogwash.

abraininavat 13y ago
A Philistine is an anti-intellectual or a non-intellectual -- a person with a materialistic frame of mind, lacking the education, intelligence, or will to focus on ideas rather than things. To suggest that a Philistine is a person who is ignorant strictly of "philosophy, art, history, or discourse" is to ignore that, when the term came about, those subjects were a huge part of every curriculum. We've moved on since then and have expanded and re-categorized our domains of knowledge. A technology-oriented education certainly doesn't imply any kind of Philistinism, despite the lack of nuance in your understanding of the term.
- gruseom 13y ago
  No, it doesn't just mean anti-intellectual. It's specifically about culture, and has always included the inability to appreciate (or hostility toward) the values conveyed by art and literature. You don't get to change what words mean, and as someone who just accused me of unduly criticizing others, you might want to avoid personal insults for a spell.
  - abraininavat 13y ago
    And you don't get to close your eyes to the fact that things have changed. "Philistine" was synonymous with "ignorant of art and literature" only because every formal education was full or art and literature. Furthermore, much of what we today consider science was once a large part of the "art" of "philosophy". As I've said in another comment, you've completely blinded yourself to the spirit of the term and taken the most literal definition. If Computer Scientists existed in Jonathan Swift's day, he most certainly would not have lumped them in with the Philistines.
  - 13y ago