5 ms·

slightly off topic - anyone moved from coding to product management? I thoroughly enjoy product management - market research, coming up with new product ideas,

by vijayr 13y ago

slightly off topic - anyone moved from coding to product management? I thoroughly enjoy product management - market research, coming up with new product ideas, feature ideas etc. No clue how to make the transition though :(

michaelochurch 13y ago
No clue how to make the transition though :( Become [executive's gender of interest] and learn how to sit on a desk.
- Whitespace 13y ago
  > Become female and learn how to sit on a desk. Are you fucking kidding me? I don't have enough karma to downvote you, someone please do the honors.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - michaelochurch 13y ago
    I realized that it was horrible as written and I apologize. In that vein, I fixed it (replaced with "executive's gender of interest"). It was reverse-pattern-matched off of a certain company where the desk ornament happened to be female, but I've seen male desk ornament dynamics as well. That said, if you don't think 95+% of workplace favoritism is based on sexual desire, you're misled. That's especially true in the non-technical/subjective roles where ability is so hard to evaluate. Most corporate executives did their 20s wrong and want to Feel Like A (Wo)Man now that they're older. Which means that for non-tech/subjective proteges they tap either (a) young, attractive people of the opposite sex who give them a "hip" image, or (b) unscrupulous young men ~20 years their junior through whom they live vicariously.
    - jasonlotito 13y ago
      > That said, if you don't think 95+% of workplace favoritism is based on sexual desire, you're misled. Yeah, that's bullshit. Maybe in certain sectors, but unless you have something to back that up, I'm calling bullshit.
      - michaelochurch 13y ago
        Maybe in certain sectors, but unless you have something to back that up Experience. Larger companies tend not to be that way, though. I saw a ton of that stuff in VC-istan, but none at Google or in the banks.
hkarthik 13y ago
It's a tough transition, but I've seen it done in a few ways: 1) Internally apply for a Product Management job. Expect to have put in at least 3 years within the company and make sure you know the business domain better than most other engineers. Play politics successfully and hop on the first open PM position available. You may have to pick a product in pretty bad shape as a proving ground. 2) Build your own product either on the side or quit your day job to focus on it. Make sure it's something a bigger company like Yahoo, Google, Facebook, Salesforce, etc would be interested in. Make a real go at building a business, and doing the hard PM work. Hire others to do the engineering work so you can focus on the PM skills. This may also take 5 years before you land your dream PM role. If you play your cards right, you may land in a PM role with a nice exit as well. 3) Go get an MBA from a top school that Google, Facebook, and Microsoft actively recruit from. Make sure your program has a focus area on Technical Product Management so you can get into the right recruiting circles. This may be a faster track, but expect to lose 2 years of income and rack up a lot of tuition debt to make it happen.
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  This is good advice but the reality of it is goddamn depressing. "Proving ground"... "at least 3 years"... "MBA from a top school". We fucking lost our industry. Because we failed, we have to deal with executives. Product management shouldn't be a special job for high-horse do-nothings with MBAs and connections. It should be a concern for all engineers; something everyone should care about and be able to influence.
  - hkarthik 13y ago
    Ha! I guess my negative bent around becoming a PM bled through. I have considered going into a PM role as a future career move but the reality of it usually depresses me into sticking with engineering. It is pretty depressing that in most software companies, engineering makes little to no decisions about features, market strategy, or operational efficiency. You really have to get out of engineering to have any influence in those areas. With engineering being so lucrative, you see a lot of self-selection where the weaker engineers end up making these transitions, which only makes the whole situation worse.
krembo 13y ago
Technical Product Managers (TPMs) are a precious and valuable asset for any company. I know it because I do it :-) No, really. If you have a good tech background, with a significat expirience from development aspects, it cannot be compared by any mean to a regual product manager. I talk to the biz people the ones with the suits, and I talk to DBAs and developers on a daily basis. I am like a bridge between the two worlds. A good advise for one who wants to do the transition would be to just to dare to dream. Suggest products, get involved in all stages of the product's lifecycle. Be proactive, and after a while go and ask to be a PM. It's not a promotion as PM are not superior to devs (except from me). It's like a new role in your career, much different from a programmer. In addition I would strongly suggest to build something on your own. Just do it, and you will learn a lot about specifying a product, about marketing, about managing the project of your own. If you come with this on your record, you are like 100 times in a better position. Forget about MBA. It is useless and just dumb to do it. Go get some good books from Amazon, read 37signals series and other books which Amazon will recommend you in this area. God forbid the missed souls of the MBAs, but there is a reason Google don't hire them.

by vijayr 13y ago

michaelochurch 13y ago

No clue how to make the transition though :( Become [executive's gender of interest] and learn how to sit on a desk.

Whitespace 13y ago
> Become female and learn how to sit on a desk. Are you fucking kidding me? I don't have enough karma to downvote you, someone please do the honors.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  I realized that it was horrible as written and I apologize. In that vein, I fixed it (replaced with "executive's gender of interest"). It was reverse-pattern-matched off of a certain company where the desk ornament happened to be female, but I've seen male desk ornament dynamics as well. That said, if you don't think 95+% of workplace favoritism is based on sexual desire, you're misled. That's especially true in the non-technical/subjective roles where ability is so hard to evaluate. Most corporate executives did their 20s wrong and want to Feel Like A (Wo)Man now that they're older. Which means that for non-tech/subjective proteges they tap either (a) young, attractive people of the opposite sex who give them a "hip" image, or (b) unscrupulous young men ~20 years their junior through whom they live vicariously.
  - jasonlotito 13y ago
    > That said, if you don't think 95+% of workplace favoritism is based on sexual desire, you're misled. Yeah, that's bullshit. Maybe in certain sectors, but unless you have something to back that up, I'm calling bullshit.
    - michaelochurch 13y ago
      Maybe in certain sectors, but unless you have something to back that up Experience. Larger companies tend not to be that way, though. I saw a ton of that stuff in VC-istan, but none at Google or in the banks.

hkarthik 13y ago

It's a tough transition, but I've seen it done in a few ways: 1) Internally apply for a Product Management job. Expect to have put in at least 3 years within the company and make sure you know the business domain better than most other engineers. Play politics successfully and hop on the first open PM position available. You may have to pick a product in pretty bad shape as a proving ground. 2) Build your own product either on the side or quit your day job to focus on it. Make sure it's something a bigger company like Yahoo, Google, Facebook, Salesforce, etc would be interested in. Make a real go at building a business, and doing the hard PM work. Hire others to do the engineering work so you can focus on the PM skills. This may also take 5 years before you land your dream PM role. If you play your cards right, you may land in a PM role with a nice exit as well. 3) Go get an MBA from a top school that Google, Facebook, and Microsoft actively recruit from. Make sure your program has a focus area on Technical Product Management so you can get into the right recruiting circles. This may be a faster track, but expect to lose 2 years of income and rack up a lot of tuition debt to make it happen.

michaelochurch 13y ago
This is good advice but the reality of it is goddamn depressing. "Proving ground"... "at least 3 years"... "MBA from a top school". We fucking lost our industry. Because we failed, we have to deal with executives. Product management shouldn't be a special job for high-horse do-nothings with MBAs and connections. It should be a concern for all engineers; something everyone should care about and be able to influence.
- hkarthik 13y ago
  Ha! I guess my negative bent around becoming a PM bled through. I have considered going into a PM role as a future career move but the reality of it usually depresses me into sticking with engineering. It is pretty depressing that in most software companies, engineering makes little to no decisions about features, market strategy, or operational efficiency. You really have to get out of engineering to have any influence in those areas. With engineering being so lucrative, you see a lot of self-selection where the weaker engineers end up making these transitions, which only makes the whole situation worse.

krembo 13y ago

Technical Product Managers (TPMs) are a precious and valuable asset for any company. I know it because I do it :-) No, really. If you have a good tech background, with a significat expirience from development aspects, it cannot be compared by any mean to a regual product manager. I talk to the biz people the ones with the suits, and I talk to DBAs and developers on a daily basis. I am like a bridge between the two worlds. A good advise for one who wants to do the transition would be to just to dare to dream. Suggest products, get involved in all stages of the product's lifecycle. Be proactive, and after a while go and ask to be a PM. It's not a promotion as PM are not superior to devs (except from me). It's like a new role in your career, much different from a programmer. In addition I would strongly suggest to build something on your own. Just do it, and you will learn a lot about specifying a product, about marketing, about managing the project of your own. If you come with this on your record, you are like 100 times in a better position. Forget about MBA. It is useless and just dumb to do it. Go get some good books from Amazon, read 37signals series and other books which Amazon will recommend you in this area. God forbid the missed souls of the MBAs, but there is a reason Google don't hire them.