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reminds me off the Hermann Goering quote from the Nuremberg trial in 1947. "Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want t

reminds me off the Hermann Goering quote from the Nuremberg trial in 1947. "Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

thangalin 13y ago
Part of the problem is that the people have no direct voice over the policies that shape their lives. Even Plato hinted that people will always be unsatisfied with their rulers (be they kings or democratic electorate) in writing, "People unwilling to govern themselves will be ruled by those deemed unfit to govern." Fortunately, ubiquitous computing opens up new approaches to democracy. https://bitbucket.org/djarvis/world-politics/ https://bitbucket.org/djarvis/world-politics/
PavlovsCat 13y ago
denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger What's worse, many citizens have long since adapted that "argument", and do the dirty work for their leaders without even having to be asked, much less ordered.
spamizbad 13y ago
denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger This is exactly what happened after 9/11 to those who opposed conflict in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Except these people weren't even "Peacemakers" per-say: they just didn't feel military excursions were an appropriate response to a terrorist attack.
refurb 13y ago
That's a bit simplistic, no? Sure, you might only come back to your farm in one piece, but what if the alternative to going to war is never coming back to your farm? What if it means leading a life that is far worse that what you currently have?
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Yeah, what if indeed? Germany attacked Poland allegedly in self-defense, with exactly those arguments, can't wait for the mushroom cloud blah blah blah. So are we talking about there actually being the need for self-defense, or about self-defense as pretext for self-destruction of the many for the gains of the few? The few existential threats the US faces seem mostly to be inside of it.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    They probably didn't say "mushroom cloud"
    - camus 13y ago
      Bush did ,that's the point.
      - dllthomas 13y ago
        The Germans, going into WWII, did not. The term was coined later, and the devices it's meant nowadays to imply were developed later. This is, of course, an accident of history and I wasn't making a deep point, just having some fun, but I do think you missed my point which was that threats of a mushroom cloud in particular would be a difference not a similarity between the two situations.
        PavlovsCat 13y ago
        "Mushroom cloud" to me basically means "we don't have time to think, because then it will be too late!". In that sense, there is exactly zero difference between Goebbels, Bush and Obama. They just outwardly behave less like total pigs in ascending order, but the rationale is the same. "Finance us, and finance us murdering you and people all over the world, or it will be EVEN WORSE." The daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador pretending she's a nurse and that Saddams's soldiers are throwing newborns on the floor just because they can, Powell with his slides telling the UN some trailers could be weapons laboratories, and that Saddam must be attacked immediately, it's all the same to me... it's not really about nuclear weapons, whatever works is used.

thangalin 13y ago

Part of the problem is that the people have no direct voice over the policies that shape their lives. Even Plato hinted that people will always be unsatisfied with their rulers (be they kings or democratic electorate) in writing, "People unwilling to govern themselves will be ruled by those deemed unfit to govern." Fortunately, ubiquitous computing opens up new approaches to democracy. https://bitbucket.org/djarvis/world-politics/ https://bitbucket.org/djarvis/world-politics/

PavlovsCat 13y ago

denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger What's worse, many citizens have long since adapted that "argument", and do the dirty work for their leaders without even having to be asked, much less ordered.

spamizbad 13y ago

denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger This is exactly what happened after 9/11 to those who opposed conflict in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Except these people weren't even "Peacemakers" per-say: they just didn't feel military excursions were an appropriate response to a terrorist attack.

refurb 13y ago

That's a bit simplistic, no? Sure, you might only come back to your farm in one piece, but what if the alternative to going to war is never coming back to your farm? What if it means leading a life that is far worse that what you currently have?

PavlovsCat 13y ago
Yeah, what if indeed? Germany attacked Poland allegedly in self-defense, with exactly those arguments, can't wait for the mushroom cloud blah blah blah. So are we talking about there actually being the need for self-defense, or about self-defense as pretext for self-destruction of the many for the gains of the few? The few existential threats the US faces seem mostly to be inside of it.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  They probably didn't say "mushroom cloud"
  - camus 13y ago
    Bush did ,that's the point.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      The Germans, going into WWII, did not. The term was coined later, and the devices it's meant nowadays to imply were developed later. This is, of course, an accident of history and I wasn't making a deep point, just having some fun, but I do think you missed my point which was that threats of a mushroom cloud in particular would be a difference not a similarity between the two situations.
      - PavlovsCat 13y ago
        "Mushroom cloud" to me basically means "we don't have time to think, because then it will be too late!". In that sense, there is exactly zero difference between Goebbels, Bush and Obama. They just outwardly behave less like total pigs in ascending order, but the rationale is the same. "Finance us, and finance us murdering you and people all over the world, or it will be EVEN WORSE." The daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador pretending she's a nurse and that Saddams's soldiers are throwing newborns on the floor just because they can, Powell with his slides telling the UN some trailers could be weapons laboratories, and that Saddam must be attacked immediately, it's all the same to me... it's not really about nuclear weapons, whatever works is used.