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To me, the scariest part of all this is your opinion. Nations are, and have always been, in a state of competition for dominance and resources. Knock one out,

To me, the scariest part of all this is your opinion. Nations are, and have always been, in a state of competition for dominance and resources. Knock one out, and some other will fill the vacuum instantly, while their people clap and cheer - death to the USA, my country #1. This idea that the USA should just leave everyone alone, and then the world will be a perfect place is so naive that it's absurd and self-destructive. Pretending that you can get a job as an IT guy at some contractor's place, then steal government laptops, bring them home, then sift through the data to gather whatever dirt you can find, and give that dirt away to other nations is most certainly treason and espionage.

kinghajj 13y ago
He didn't give them away to other nations, but to journalists. And he's exposing illegal acts that actually are treasonous ("National Security" is just an excuse to protect existing power structures, not the actually best-interests of the common good).
- powertower 13y ago
  Are you talking about the "direct pipes" PRISM and FISA media story? Or all the other documents he is releasing about the USA spying/hacking on other nations? Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play. Or are you talking about whatever else he has / will release to help damage the USA? Not only did he release those documents for anyone to see (in effect), he and his "journalists" sensationalized it to the point of it being a falsehood... Read the response of the government, the number of FISA requests involved, how they are handled, the limited number of phone taps done, how this does not aplly to US citizens at all, and what the involved companies are saying. Even Google is claiming the media is downright lying about what is going on (no "direct pipes")... http://allthingsd.com/20130618/google-formally-petitions-to-publish-statistics-on-fisa-requests/ http://allthingsd.com/20130618/google-formally-petitions-to-... > Google's reputation and business has been harmed by the false or misleading reports in the media, and Google's users are concerned by the allegations. Or just keep ignoring the facts, and pretend you know better because the government must be evil and you live is a Nazi Germany like state.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - kinghajj 13y ago
    I'm referring to all of his leaks so far. > Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play. Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong. > Even Google is claiming the media is downright lying about what is going on. It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story, while all we get from the ISPs, telecos, and the government are simple denials.
    - powertower 13y ago
      > Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong. It makes those actions necessary, and his actions absolutely wrong. > It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story, while all we get from the ISPs, telecos, and the government are simple denials. What we got was clarifications and specifics to the media's sensationalism and falsehoods. But you've already made up your mind... "Direct pipes" turned out to be nothing more than FTP accounts at google and facebook, were data has to be requested first, looked over by lawyers, and then moved to. And "unlimited wholescale spying" turned out to be extremely specific targeting of a few hundred phone accounts. Not to mention that US citizen targeting turned out to be completely against the rules.
      - hga 13y ago
        Actually, the most appalling thing could be that warrant to the business unit of Verizon for 3 months of ALL their phone call metadata, every single phone line. Now, if it's limited to business accounts that would imply something congruent with this topic, a focus on leakers. If it's matched by ones for residential lines, non-business mobile phones, etc. it's downright chilling, I don't care what's "completely against the rules", especially with an administration that doesn't care about the concept. Look, even DNI Clapper has admitted he lied, in giving the "least untruthful" answer to the question of whether the "NSA collect[s] any type of data at all on millions of Americans". Which apparently hinges on a definition of collect where they Hoover up lots of stuff, and promise to only look at it if they're following their rules. Now, if we think the downright wrong things aren't some combination of Snowden's limited understanding of things AND the filter of the reporter and his editors, we might wonder if that warrant wasn't fabricated or sexed up. I don't know off the top of my head how to proceed on judging its validity.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
Use everyone else's oil first, right? >treason Nope. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=treason http://lmgtfy.com/?q=treason
PavlovsCat 13y ago
> "Nations are, and have always been, in a state of competition for dominance and resources." From the totalitarian point of view, history is something to be created rather than learned. -- George Orwell, "The Prevention of Literature" (1946)

kinghajj 13y ago

He didn't give them away to other nations, but to journalists. And he's exposing illegal acts that actually are treasonous ("National Security" is just an excuse to protect existing power structures, not the actually best-interests of the common good).

powertower 13y ago
Are you talking about the "direct pipes" PRISM and FISA media story? Or all the other documents he is releasing about the USA spying/hacking on other nations? Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play. Or are you talking about whatever else he has / will release to help damage the USA? Not only did he release those documents for anyone to see (in effect), he and his "journalists" sensationalized it to the point of it being a falsehood... Read the response of the government, the number of FISA requests involved, how they are handled, the limited number of phone taps done, how this does not aplly to US citizens at all, and what the involved companies are saying. Even Google is claiming the media is downright lying about what is going on (no "direct pipes")... http://allthingsd.com/20130618/google-formally-petitions-to-publish-statistics-on-fisa-requests/ http://allthingsd.com/20130618/google-formally-petitions-to-... > Google's reputation and business has been harmed by the false or misleading reports in the media, and Google's users are concerned by the allegations. Or just keep ignoring the facts, and pretend you know better because the government must be evil and you live is a Nazi Germany like state.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- kinghajj 13y ago
  I'm referring to all of his leaks so far. > Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play. Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong. > Even Google is claiming the media is downright lying about what is going on. It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story, while all we get from the ISPs, telecos, and the government are simple denials.
  - powertower 13y ago
    > Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong. It makes those actions necessary, and his actions absolutely wrong. > It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story, while all we get from the ISPs, telecos, and the government are simple denials. What we got was clarifications and specifics to the media's sensationalism and falsehoods. But you've already made up your mind... "Direct pipes" turned out to be nothing more than FTP accounts at google and facebook, were data has to be requested first, looked over by lawyers, and then moved to. And "unlimited wholescale spying" turned out to be extremely specific targeting of a few hundred phone accounts. Not to mention that US citizen targeting turned out to be completely against the rules.
    - hga 13y ago
      Actually, the most appalling thing could be that warrant to the business unit of Verizon for 3 months of ALL their phone call metadata, every single phone line. Now, if it's limited to business accounts that would imply something congruent with this topic, a focus on leakers. If it's matched by ones for residential lines, non-business mobile phones, etc. it's downright chilling, I don't care what's "completely against the rules", especially with an administration that doesn't care about the concept. Look, even DNI Clapper has admitted he lied, in giving the "least untruthful" answer to the question of whether the "NSA collect[s] any type of data at all on millions of Americans". Which apparently hinges on a definition of collect where they Hoover up lots of stuff, and promise to only look at it if they're following their rules. Now, if we think the downright wrong things aren't some combination of Snowden's limited understanding of things AND the filter of the reporter and his editors, we might wonder if that warrant wasn't fabricated or sexed up. I don't know off the top of my head how to proceed on judging its validity.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

Use everyone else's oil first, right? >treason Nope. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=treason http://lmgtfy.com/?q=treason

PavlovsCat 13y ago

> "Nations are, and have always been, in a state of competition for dominance and resources." From the totalitarian point of view, history is something to be created rather than learned. -- George Orwell, "The Prevention of Literature" (1946)