5 ms·

Why Tipping Should Be Outlawed

38 points by PanMan 13y ago

michas 13y ago
Why socialists always try to spend other's people money? Or tell them how they should live their lives? America was once a free country...
pedalpete 13y ago
I've had many friends over the years who have worked in the service industry, and I spent a few months as a bar-back earning tips as well. The thing this article doesn't mention is how many servers feel about tips. When I first started earning tips, I couldn't believe how much money I was making for the amount of work I was doing. I always had cash in my pocket, and lots of it, and I didn't make as much as servers or bartenders. I left after only a few months, and have fond memories of the job and swimming in cash as a 21 year old. 10 years on, I had a few friends who were still in the service industry, and had moved up to white-table service in very posh restaurants. They all wanted to get out, but had a common complaint. They wouldn't make as much as they did as a server in any other profession that was available to them. The tips became the handcuffs that kept them in a job that was no longer of interest to them. Since then, the percentage rate of tips has continued to increase, so I imagine this problem is getting worse rather than better.
invalidOrTaken 13y ago
People working as servers have very little market power. I don't know what the macro solution is, but the micro "solution" is: don't be a server.
toastedzergling 13y ago
As an American who eats out a lot, I have to admit I loved going to Iceland where tipping is not expected whatsoever. Tipping feels like prostitution; when cash is exchanged it's hard to believe you're getting authentic service.
- csense 13y ago
  > when cash is exchanged it's hard to believe you're getting authentic service This doesn't even make sense. Are you a Communist or something?
  - geon 13y ago
    I think that was just a poorly worded statement. See the comment by aaron695.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  Money is being exchanged for service whether its bundled into the price charged for food and drink, tacked on as an explicit service fee, or paid separately as a tip. If paying for service feels equivalent to prostitution to you, well, if you want to avoid "prostitution", you're going to need to forgo a lot of common economic activity.
  - toastedzergling 13y ago
    I didn't express myself well enough, but your comment helped coax the idea from my heart to my brain: I have no problems with explicit fees, nothing about that feels wrong to me. They are black and white. I want food, I pay for it. The non-negotiable, you pay the price on the menu aspect means both parties know fully-well in advance and can agree to what's being exchanged. It's the ambiguous / "implicit" fees that cause me anguish. The waitress, in knowing that after the meal I'll be forced to make a judgment call, evaluating their service allows the possibility that every interaction leading up until I've paid them has been constructed to manipulate me. And outside an egregious there's little I can do to prove/disprove that. Whereas if its spelled out that upon entering the restaurant you will "pay XX rate for the service to do YY for you" you have the peace of mind that all parties involved know exactly what's going on. And anything they do above and beyond that is authentically who they are. If they tell me a joke, I know it's because they wanted to, not because they thought it might coax more money out of me.
- smsm42 13y ago
  Wait, what? You mean service from my car mechanic, gardener, pool guy, garbage collector, repairman, contractor, hairdresser, sports trainer, etc. - all "unauthentic" because I pay money for it? Or it is only when serving food that paying for it somehow becomes "unauthentic"? It is extremely weird notion that paying for service is somehow not expected. Why do you think all these people do it - out of deep and passionate love for you?
jared314 13y ago
I've always thought that tipping was just a way for restaurants to lower both the wages and the advertised price of a meal. I would rather have a service fee, because, when you are not ordering a multi-course meal, I don't know what the servers actually do.
bobroberts 13y ago
Go to a restaurant or bar frequently and tip generously. You will be AMAZED at he great service you receive. May not be worth much for a one time drop in, but for somewhere you frequent it is well worth the cost.
smsm42 13y ago
So the summary is "I don't like doing it the traditional way, other people do like it and keep doing it, so I must force them to behave as I want by applying the force of government coercion". But of course. Oh, and of course no case for government coercion can be complete without throwing racism and sexism into it. It's not enough to call police on people that behave not to your liking, you have also to call them racists.
- geon 13y ago
  And your opinion is "it should be done the way it has always been done"? > other people do like it and keep doing it Well, a lot of people seems to not like it, but keeps doing it not to be seen as an asshole. > I must force them to behave as I want by applying the force of government coercion That was how slavery was abolished... Is that really your best argument? Imho, the arguments were very well motivated. Can you offer any counter argument to the actual points in the actual article?
  - smsm42 13y ago
    My opinion is government has no place in choosing the exact arrangement of how to pay servers (or anybody else for that matter), and should not enforce one way at the expense of the other because some columnist doesn't like it. >>>> That was how slavery was abolished. No it's not. Slavery was abolished when the state refused to recognize that human being can be owned by anybody and so nobody could make a person to work for another person unvoluntarily. Since then, all employment is voluntary. What the article asks for is to ban voluntary employment of some sort because of some stupid ideas of this columnist about how everybody else should behave. >>> Well, a lot of people seems to not like it, but keeps doing it not to be seen as an asshole. So to ask for the government coercion to force people to change the whole way their business works - on the way probably putting a lot of people out of business and out of work is not being asshole, but actually standing up for what you believe in - is being asshole? Talk about perverted ethics... That's like saying the only moral way of doing charity is if you hire a thug to mug somebody and then donate the proceeds. Then again, that seems to actually be very common opinion that charity can not be done without being coerced, so I shouldn't be surprised. >>> Can you offer any counter argument to the actual points in the actual article? I just did. I can do it again and very briefly: it absolutely does not matter if you don't like how other people pay for their services and how other people earn their money, and how they behave in general, provided these people are happy with the arrangement. If you don't like tipping restaurant - open non-tipping one and have the happiest servers in the universe and put all others out of business. Or eat at the McDonalds - I have never seen anybody tipping McDonalds cashier.
unsignedint 13y ago
I don't really mind tipping for a job well done, and I tend to be harsh for those who are lousy. (That's what tip supposed to be after all.) I have complaints to people who is working in the service industry (or have worked in there, as part-time and whatnot) telling me that I should never undertip them/leave without tip, even if the service is horrible, because that's how "they are getting paid properly." That's total BS, if "tipping" is an incentive for better service. And if they feel undertipping/no tipping is bad because I am docking their pay, by all mean, just include that in the price and refuse any type of tipping.

38 points by PanMan 13y ago

Why socialists always try to spend other's people money? Or tell them how they should live their lives? America was once a free country...

pedalpete 13y ago

I've had many friends over the years who have worked in the service industry, and I spent a few months as a bar-back earning tips as well. The thing this article doesn't mention is how many servers feel about tips. When I first started earning tips, I couldn't believe how much money I was making for the amount of work I was doing. I always had cash in my pocket, and lots of it, and I didn't make as much as servers or bartenders. I left after only a few months, and have fond memories of the job and swimming in cash as a 21 year old. 10 years on, I had a few friends who were still in the service industry, and had moved up to white-table service in very posh restaurants. They all wanted to get out, but had a common complaint. They wouldn't make as much as they did as a server in any other profession that was available to them. The tips became the handcuffs that kept them in a job that was no longer of interest to them. Since then, the percentage rate of tips has continued to increase, so I imagine this problem is getting worse rather than better.

invalidOrTaken 13y ago

People working as servers have very little market power. I don't know what the macro solution is, but the micro "solution" is: don't be a server.

toastedzergling 13y ago

As an American who eats out a lot, I have to admit I loved going to Iceland where tipping is not expected whatsoever. Tipping feels like prostitution; when cash is exchanged it's hard to believe you're getting authentic service.

csense 13y ago
> when cash is exchanged it's hard to believe you're getting authentic service This doesn't even make sense. Are you a Communist or something?
- geon 13y ago
  I think that was just a poorly worded statement. See the comment by aaron695.
dragonwriter 13y ago
Money is being exchanged for service whether its bundled into the price charged for food and drink, tacked on as an explicit service fee, or paid separately as a tip. If paying for service feels equivalent to prostitution to you, well, if you want to avoid "prostitution", you're going to need to forgo a lot of common economic activity.
- toastedzergling 13y ago
  I didn't express myself well enough, but your comment helped coax the idea from my heart to my brain: I have no problems with explicit fees, nothing about that feels wrong to me. They are black and white. I want food, I pay for it. The non-negotiable, you pay the price on the menu aspect means both parties know fully-well in advance and can agree to what's being exchanged. It's the ambiguous / "implicit" fees that cause me anguish. The waitress, in knowing that after the meal I'll be forced to make a judgment call, evaluating their service allows the possibility that every interaction leading up until I've paid them has been constructed to manipulate me. And outside an egregious there's little I can do to prove/disprove that. Whereas if its spelled out that upon entering the restaurant you will "pay XX rate for the service to do YY for you" you have the peace of mind that all parties involved know exactly what's going on. And anything they do above and beyond that is authentically who they are. If they tell me a joke, I know it's because they wanted to, not because they thought it might coax more money out of me.
smsm42 13y ago
Wait, what? You mean service from my car mechanic, gardener, pool guy, garbage collector, repairman, contractor, hairdresser, sports trainer, etc. - all "unauthentic" because I pay money for it? Or it is only when serving food that paying for it somehow becomes "unauthentic"? It is extremely weird notion that paying for service is somehow not expected. Why do you think all these people do it - out of deep and passionate love for you?

jared314 13y ago

I've always thought that tipping was just a way for restaurants to lower both the wages and the advertised price of a meal. I would rather have a service fee, because, when you are not ordering a multi-course meal, I don't know what the servers actually do.

bobroberts 13y ago

Go to a restaurant or bar frequently and tip generously. You will be AMAZED at he great service you receive. May not be worth much for a one time drop in, but for somewhere you frequent it is well worth the cost.

smsm42 13y ago

So the summary is "I don't like doing it the traditional way, other people do like it and keep doing it, so I must force them to behave as I want by applying the force of government coercion". But of course. Oh, and of course no case for government coercion can be complete without throwing racism and sexism into it. It's not enough to call police on people that behave not to your liking, you have also to call them racists.

geon 13y ago
And your opinion is "it should be done the way it has always been done"? > other people do like it and keep doing it Well, a lot of people seems to not like it, but keeps doing it not to be seen as an asshole. > I must force them to behave as I want by applying the force of government coercion That was how slavery was abolished... Is that really your best argument? Imho, the arguments were very well motivated. Can you offer any counter argument to the actual points in the actual article?
- smsm42 13y ago
  My opinion is government has no place in choosing the exact arrangement of how to pay servers (or anybody else for that matter), and should not enforce one way at the expense of the other because some columnist doesn't like it. >>>> That was how slavery was abolished. No it's not. Slavery was abolished when the state refused to recognize that human being can be owned by anybody and so nobody could make a person to work for another person unvoluntarily. Since then, all employment is voluntary. What the article asks for is to ban voluntary employment of some sort because of some stupid ideas of this columnist about how everybody else should behave. >>> Well, a lot of people seems to not like it, but keeps doing it not to be seen as an asshole. So to ask for the government coercion to force people to change the whole way their business works - on the way probably putting a lot of people out of business and out of work is not being asshole, but actually standing up for what you believe in - is being asshole? Talk about perverted ethics... That's like saying the only moral way of doing charity is if you hire a thug to mug somebody and then donate the proceeds. Then again, that seems to actually be very common opinion that charity can not be done without being coerced, so I shouldn't be surprised. >>> Can you offer any counter argument to the actual points in the actual article? I just did. I can do it again and very briefly: it absolutely does not matter if you don't like how other people pay for their services and how other people earn their money, and how they behave in general, provided these people are happy with the arrangement. If you don't like tipping restaurant - open non-tipping one and have the happiest servers in the universe and put all others out of business. Or eat at the McDonalds - I have never seen anybody tipping McDonalds cashier.

unsignedint 13y ago

I don't really mind tipping for a job well done, and I tend to be harsh for those who are lousy. (That's what tip supposed to be after all.) I have complaints to people who is working in the service industry (or have worked in there, as part-time and whatnot) telling me that I should never undertip them/leave without tip, even if the service is horrible, because that's how "they are getting paid properly." That's total BS, if "tipping" is an incentive for better service. And if they feel undertipping/no tipping is bad because I am docking their pay, by all mean, just include that in the price and refuse any type of tipping.