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1 to 5 deaths for 40k raids is not at all in the realms of statistical significance. In terms of innocent people killed by the police it strikes me as being so

by cmdkeen 13y ago

1 to 5 deaths for 40k raids is not at all in the realms of statistical significance. In terms of innocent people killed by the police it strikes me as being so far down the list as not a problem with "paramilitary" "raids". Both of course are loaded terms. Another way to play it would be to say that better trained and experienced officers are conducting these operations with a very low rate of adverse outcomes. Would they be higher if the cops who weren't on these teams were carrying out these "raids". How many people are year are killed by emergency services vehicles? How many are killed following other police interactions?

akiselev 13y ago
I literally said I agree that statistically the data is insignificant > How many people are year are killed by emergency services vehicles? How many are killed following other police interactions? You're kidding right? Is this really an acceptable form of argument? The point isn't total number of deaths, the point is the increasing use of flak jackets, stun grenades ("flashbangs" but don't kid yourself, they're grenades), automatic weapons, and military counter-insurgency tactics in situations where you can't rationally justify such actions. And to preempt an obvious red herring: Gang shootouts, extensive drug rings, hostage situations, and violent offenders DO JUSTIFY the use of such force. Nonviolent offenses and other situations where there is little reason to expect an armed suspect do not.
- cmdkeen 13y ago
  My point is that flak jackets don't kill people, and automatic weapons don't unless they go off. Stun grenades might if they cause a heart attack, but so could the pressure of a police investigation. So could a speeding police car. You presented the issue as 1-5 people a year being killed. If you agree it isn't significant then what is the problem? Because it isn't that it causes deaths. If you're going to tackle perceived problems with American policing there seem to be far better areas to address than "I don't like paramilitary raids that don't actually have statistically meaningful adverse outcomes".

by cmdkeen 13y ago

akiselev 13y ago

I literally said I agree that statistically the data is insignificant > How many people are year are killed by emergency services vehicles? How many are killed following other police interactions? You're kidding right? Is this really an acceptable form of argument? The point isn't total number of deaths, the point is the increasing use of flak jackets, stun grenades ("flashbangs" but don't kid yourself, they're grenades), automatic weapons, and military counter-insurgency tactics in situations where you can't rationally justify such actions. And to preempt an obvious red herring: Gang shootouts, extensive drug rings, hostage situations, and violent offenders DO JUSTIFY the use of such force. Nonviolent offenses and other situations where there is little reason to expect an armed suspect do not.

cmdkeen 13y ago
My point is that flak jackets don't kill people, and automatic weapons don't unless they go off. Stun grenades might if they cause a heart attack, but so could the pressure of a police investigation. So could a speeding police car. You presented the issue as 1-5 people a year being killed. If you agree it isn't significant then what is the problem? Because it isn't that it causes deaths. If you're going to tackle perceived problems with American policing there seem to be far better areas to address than "I don't like paramilitary raids that don't actually have statistically meaningful adverse outcomes".