4 ms·

I think the first is a result of the NSA leaks. HN I think is already extremely inclined to US politics and an issue that hits so close to home is bound be the

I think the first is a result of the NSA leaks. HN I think is already extremely inclined to US politics and an issue that hits so close to home is bound be the spark that blows the powder keg. According to the abstract of the paper, estimates are at 40k paramilitarized police raids PER YEAR. I agree that statistically the data is insignificant but looking at the number of innocent deaths (1-5 per year generally), I have an uneasy feeling that this increase in force may have hit diminishing returns as far as safety goes and are now into the zone of increasing false positives.

cmdkeen 13y ago
1 to 5 deaths for 40k raids is not at all in the realms of statistical significance. In terms of innocent people killed by the police it strikes me as being so far down the list as not a problem with "paramilitary" "raids". Both of course are loaded terms. Another way to play it would be to say that better trained and experienced officers are conducting these operations with a very low rate of adverse outcomes. Would they be higher if the cops who weren't on these teams were carrying out these "raids". How many people are year are killed by emergency services vehicles? How many are killed following other police interactions?
- akiselev 13y ago
  I literally said I agree that statistically the data is insignificant > How many people are year are killed by emergency services vehicles? How many are killed following other police interactions? You're kidding right? Is this really an acceptable form of argument? The point isn't total number of deaths, the point is the increasing use of flak jackets, stun grenades ("flashbangs" but don't kid yourself, they're grenades), automatic weapons, and military counter-insurgency tactics in situations where you can't rationally justify such actions. And to preempt an obvious red herring: Gang shootouts, extensive drug rings, hostage situations, and violent offenders DO JUSTIFY the use of such force. Nonviolent offenses and other situations where there is little reason to expect an armed suspect do not.
  - cmdkeen 13y ago
    My point is that flak jackets don't kill people, and automatic weapons don't unless they go off. Stun grenades might if they cause a heart attack, but so could the pressure of a police investigation. So could a speeding police car. You presented the issue as 1-5 people a year being killed. If you agree it isn't significant then what is the problem? Because it isn't that it causes deaths. If you're going to tackle perceived problems with American policing there seem to be far better areas to address than "I don't like paramilitary raids that don't actually have statistically meaningful adverse outcomes".
threeseed 13y ago
2012 - 0 botched raids. 100% success rate. 2011 - 6 botched raids. 99.99% success rate. 2010 - 17 botched raids. 99.96% success rate. Call me crazy but that seems like a very impressive success rate given 40000 total.
- akiselev 13y ago
  It's unrealistic for CATO to go digging through court cases across the country. They use aggregate sources of data from other institutions funded specifically to study police. Thus their data is limited to confirmed court cases and available police documents from other organizations. Their success rate for 40,000/yr does properly reveal if the botched raids were a cost of doing business or a consequence of increased militarization. For all we know, stricter scrutiny regarding situations where SWAT teams are used could reduce the raids to 35,000/yr and almost completely eliminate botched raids without decreasing overall safety (the primary reason for using SWAT teams). The point here is to point out excessive force in a few categories of situations, not to put into question the whole purpose of SWAT teams. A cursory search reveals these "botched" raids in 2012 alone: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/06/swat-team-throws-flashbangs-raids-wrong-home-due-to-open-wifi-network/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/06/swat-team-throws-... http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/cops-kill-dog-handcuff-kids-in-wrong-house-raid/ http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/cops-kill-dog-handcuff-kids-in-wr... http://www.businessinsider.com/9-horrifying-botched-police-raids-2012-2?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/9-horrifying-botched-police-r... http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2012/aug/04/arizona_swat_team_kills_man_drug http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2012/aug/04/arizona_swat... http://rt.com/usa/swat-billings-burns-fasching-312/ http://rt.com/usa/swat-billings-burns-fasching-312/ Or how about this: when the DEA pulled local SWAT resources (the majority of local SWAT forces) to raid Oaksterdam in Oakland (unarmed civilians protected by state law), they failed to respond to a shooting in a university a few MILES away. http://www.eastbayexpress.com/LegalizationNation/archives/2012/07/11/federal-raid-on-oaksterdam-sapped-police-response-to-oikos-university-massacre http://www.eastbayexpress.com/LegalizationNation/archives/20... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/oakland-school-shooting-oaksterdam-university-and-occupy-san-francisco-morning-roundup/2012/04/03/gIQAvWyrsS_blog.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/oakland-sc... The shooter described lining people up against and firing at them Ceaușescu style.

cmdkeen 13y ago

1 to 5 deaths for 40k raids is not at all in the realms of statistical significance. In terms of innocent people killed by the police it strikes me as being so far down the list as not a problem with "paramilitary" "raids". Both of course are loaded terms. Another way to play it would be to say that better trained and experienced officers are conducting these operations with a very low rate of adverse outcomes. Would they be higher if the cops who weren't on these teams were carrying out these "raids". How many people are year are killed by emergency services vehicles? How many are killed following other police interactions?

akiselev 13y ago
I literally said I agree that statistically the data is insignificant > How many people are year are killed by emergency services vehicles? How many are killed following other police interactions? You're kidding right? Is this really an acceptable form of argument? The point isn't total number of deaths, the point is the increasing use of flak jackets, stun grenades ("flashbangs" but don't kid yourself, they're grenades), automatic weapons, and military counter-insurgency tactics in situations where you can't rationally justify such actions. And to preempt an obvious red herring: Gang shootouts, extensive drug rings, hostage situations, and violent offenders DO JUSTIFY the use of such force. Nonviolent offenses and other situations where there is little reason to expect an armed suspect do not.
- cmdkeen 13y ago
  My point is that flak jackets don't kill people, and automatic weapons don't unless they go off. Stun grenades might if they cause a heart attack, but so could the pressure of a police investigation. So could a speeding police car. You presented the issue as 1-5 people a year being killed. If you agree it isn't significant then what is the problem? Because it isn't that it causes deaths. If you're going to tackle perceived problems with American policing there seem to be far better areas to address than "I don't like paramilitary raids that don't actually have statistically meaningful adverse outcomes".

threeseed 13y ago

2012 - 0 botched raids. 100% success rate. 2011 - 6 botched raids. 99.99% success rate. 2010 - 17 botched raids. 99.96% success rate. Call me crazy but that seems like a very impressive success rate given 40000 total.

akiselev 13y ago
It's unrealistic for CATO to go digging through court cases across the country. They use aggregate sources of data from other institutions funded specifically to study police. Thus their data is limited to confirmed court cases and available police documents from other organizations. Their success rate for 40,000/yr does properly reveal if the botched raids were a cost of doing business or a consequence of increased militarization. For all we know, stricter scrutiny regarding situations where SWAT teams are used could reduce the raids to 35,000/yr and almost completely eliminate botched raids without decreasing overall safety (the primary reason for using SWAT teams). The point here is to point out excessive force in a few categories of situations, not to put into question the whole purpose of SWAT teams. A cursory search reveals these "botched" raids in 2012 alone: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/06/swat-team-throws-flashbangs-raids-wrong-home-due-to-open-wifi-network/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/06/swat-team-throws-... http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/cops-kill-dog-handcuff-kids-in-wrong-house-raid/ http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/cops-kill-dog-handcuff-kids-in-wr... http://www.businessinsider.com/9-horrifying-botched-police-raids-2012-2?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/9-horrifying-botched-police-r... http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2012/aug/04/arizona_swat_team_kills_man_drug http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2012/aug/04/arizona_swat... http://rt.com/usa/swat-billings-burns-fasching-312/ http://rt.com/usa/swat-billings-burns-fasching-312/ Or how about this: when the DEA pulled local SWAT resources (the majority of local SWAT forces) to raid Oaksterdam in Oakland (unarmed civilians protected by state law), they failed to respond to a shooting in a university a few MILES away. http://www.eastbayexpress.com/LegalizationNation/archives/2012/07/11/federal-raid-on-oaksterdam-sapped-police-response-to-oikos-university-massacre http://www.eastbayexpress.com/LegalizationNation/archives/20... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/oakland-school-shooting-oaksterdam-university-and-occupy-san-francisco-morning-roundup/2012/04/03/gIQAvWyrsS_blog.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/oakland-sc... The shooter described lining people up against and firing at them Ceaușescu style.