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What I see now as US is a very different place from the one I imagined only 20 years ago. In this very short time span it went from THE place to go to in terms

What I see now as US is a very different place from the one I imagined only 20 years ago. In this very short time span it went from THE place to go to in terms of Freedom to "are you nuts? - it's communist Russia in disguise". I've heard there are "no-fly" secret lists which you can't challenge because, you know, they are secret. That can't be true, right? grin

hga 13y ago
You can challenge them, e.g. ask the TSA or whomever to reconsider, but you won't be told why your name was put on it ... which is not at all insane if you think about it. The existence of the list(s), and their many false positives, e.g. the late Senator Teddy Kennedy, is no secret at all, just their contents and methods.
- crististm 13y ago
  You see the problem here? These are tactics of a police state. In a free world there is no secret police doing secret stuff that I have to jump through hoops to challenge. The moment people get used to this shit - they have won.
  - hga 13y ago
    We're Americans, I assure you however much we're "used to it" there's a smoldering anger that is getting hotter and hotter as this goes on. The TEA Party et. al. are part of that, which is of course why it was imperative to suppress them. As the organs of the state continue in this ... well, it isn't going to end well.
- bobwaycott 13y ago
  Not being told why your name is on a secret no-fly list is insane if you think about it. Either sufficient evidence of criminal activity exists--at which point the accused has protected rights to know the charges and confront the accusers thanks to the 6th Amendment--or sufficient evidence of criminal activity does not exist and the person should not be on a no-fly list. That is not even including the insanity or illegality of having a no-fly list to begin with.
  - hga 13y ago
    I mean the purpose of the list will be defeated if the methods by which it was created are disclosed. Which says nothing about the desirably of such a list or this use of it. (For that matter, the gun grabbers keep campaigning to deny gun ownership to anyone on it, can't have guns in "terrorist hands"....)
    - bobwaycott 13y ago
      Ah, gotcha. It certainly didn't parse that way.
      - hga 13y ago
        Yeah, I guess it isn't clear, when I say "if you think about it" that generally includes "put yourself in the shoes of the people doing this".
        bobwaycott 13y ago
        Nah, it was my mistake and misunderstanding.
- philwelch 13y ago
  > The existence of the list(s), and their many false positives, e.g. the late Senator Teddy Kennedy Are you sure they weren't just worried he'd get drunk and fly the plane into the water?
fixxer 13y ago
They are just trying to keep us safe. ;) Personally, I'd rather be vulnerable to a few nuts than vulnerable to the system.
- senjmccarthy 13y ago
  Amen. Especially when the system is itself nuts and many of those who prop it up are nuts. "Freedom", by my definition, is thinking from a place of 1. personal responsibility and 2. let's fix the problem, not from one of 1. "I am a victim, or a potential one. Protect me." or 2. "There has been an accident. Who is to blame? Find who is guilty and make them pay." But I guess many Americans continue to believe they are the most free of all the world's citizens.

hga 13y ago

You can challenge them, e.g. ask the TSA or whomever to reconsider, but you won't be told why your name was put on it ... which is not at all insane if you think about it. The existence of the list(s), and their many false positives, e.g. the late Senator Teddy Kennedy, is no secret at all, just their contents and methods.

crististm 13y ago
You see the problem here? These are tactics of a police state. In a free world there is no secret police doing secret stuff that I have to jump through hoops to challenge. The moment people get used to this shit - they have won.
- hga 13y ago
  We're Americans, I assure you however much we're "used to it" there's a smoldering anger that is getting hotter and hotter as this goes on. The TEA Party et. al. are part of that, which is of course why it was imperative to suppress them. As the organs of the state continue in this ... well, it isn't going to end well.
bobwaycott 13y ago
Not being told why your name is on a secret no-fly list is insane if you think about it. Either sufficient evidence of criminal activity exists--at which point the accused has protected rights to know the charges and confront the accusers thanks to the 6th Amendment--or sufficient evidence of criminal activity does not exist and the person should not be on a no-fly list. That is not even including the insanity or illegality of having a no-fly list to begin with.
- hga 13y ago
  I mean the purpose of the list will be defeated if the methods by which it was created are disclosed. Which says nothing about the desirably of such a list or this use of it. (For that matter, the gun grabbers keep campaigning to deny gun ownership to anyone on it, can't have guns in "terrorist hands"....)
  - bobwaycott 13y ago
    Ah, gotcha. It certainly didn't parse that way.
    - hga 13y ago
      Yeah, I guess it isn't clear, when I say "if you think about it" that generally includes "put yourself in the shoes of the people doing this".
      - bobwaycott 13y ago
        Nah, it was my mistake and misunderstanding.
philwelch 13y ago
> The existence of the list(s), and their many false positives, e.g. the late Senator Teddy Kennedy Are you sure they weren't just worried he'd get drunk and fly the plane into the water?

fixxer 13y ago

They are just trying to keep us safe. ;) Personally, I'd rather be vulnerable to a few nuts than vulnerable to the system.

senjmccarthy 13y ago
Amen. Especially when the system is itself nuts and many of those who prop it up are nuts. "Freedom", by my definition, is thinking from a place of 1. personal responsibility and 2. let's fix the problem, not from one of 1. "I am a victim, or a potential one. Protect me." or 2. "There has been an accident. Who is to blame? Find who is guilty and make them pay." But I guess many Americans continue to believe they are the most free of all the world's citizens.