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I'm in the UK. If I'm a second-class citizen qua my being a software engineer, I'd say being a second-class citizen pays pretty fucking well. Let's see: good p

I'm in the UK. If I'm a second-class citizen qua my being a software engineer, I'd say being a second-class citizen pays pretty fucking well. Let's see: good pay, mostly recession-proof work, often interesting work. Crikey, it's like apartheid South Africa or the Deep South during Jim Crow being in engineering...

walshemj 13y ago
Realy when your next in London go to Holbourn and walk into one of the Inns of court and see what the offices of the £2000/ hour barristers look like. Compare a medical Dr with say 15 years experience to an engineer no contest. Or work in the city and have your end customer in fiance say oh I have a pair of shoes that cost more than your entire wardrobe. Just because your paid well compared to a shop assistant doesn't mean the technical people are not second class citizens.
- tommorris 13y ago
  Here's the difference: the process of becoming a barrister is a long and expensive process that many people fail to complete. Degree, followed by a training course, then you have to try and find a chambers that will accept you, then spend six months to a year doing a pupillage that might cost you more than you make. For at least a year or two, you'd probably make more money as a waiter or shop assistant. And the number of people who try to become a lawyer and fail is pretty high. As for doctors? Have you seen how long medical school takes? It's a long, expensive and arduous journey. In comparison, I make excellent money doing something I mostly enjoy, have no formal qualifications in anything relevant (I've got an MA in Philosophy), never struggle to find work, make enough that I can go out and have fun and so on. Yes, I'm not making £2,000 an hour. I don't particularly care. Does that make a second-class citizen? Absolutely not. (Of course, the fact that I can't legally marry another man actually does make me legally a second-class citizen...) My problem is that any reasonable person outside the tech community would look at the situation we find ourselves in work-wise and think "well, if you enjoy building software, that's a pretty fucking sweet deal". And they're right. Bitching about getting paid a pretty good salary for doing something reasonably enjoyable, having a wide variety of options for work across a variety of sectors... that's pretty fucking whiny and entitled. In this discussion, we started with the comparison by the author of the linked piece of animus towards gentrifying technology workers to the persecution that immigrant and trans people face. The point is this: we do actually get paid quite significantly better than most of society, to do something most of us love. The idea that we're either second class citizens or being persecuted qua being engineers/developers (etc.) is laughable and shows a complete lack of perspective relative to the worst off in society. The idea that animus towards tech workers is in some way analagous to the violence, social disapproval, contempt and often legally-sanctioned persecution that immigrants or trans people face is ridiculous. Should tech workers be paid more? Probably. I certainly wouldn't object if I could double my day rate. Am I a second-class citizen? Absolutely not. I'm getting paid what the market pays for people with my skills and experience. Second class CITIZEN would imply some kind of discrimination or persecution by the state. (Again, like not being able to get married.) Being paid hundreds of pounds a day to write code isn't one of those things.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    I was comparing a fully qualified "engineer" CENG which has a similar lengthy post first degree CPD element here not self taught programmers. Take say a senior civil engineer who may design large (ie over a £billion) projects most will make less than the average GP does. Your attitude is why we are paid so badly compared to SV

walshemj 13y ago

Realy when your next in London go to Holbourn and walk into one of the Inns of court and see what the offices of the £2000/ hour barristers look like. Compare a medical Dr with say 15 years experience to an engineer no contest. Or work in the city and have your end customer in fiance say oh I have a pair of shoes that cost more than your entire wardrobe. Just because your paid well compared to a shop assistant doesn't mean the technical people are not second class citizens.

tommorris 13y ago
Here's the difference: the process of becoming a barrister is a long and expensive process that many people fail to complete. Degree, followed by a training course, then you have to try and find a chambers that will accept you, then spend six months to a year doing a pupillage that might cost you more than you make. For at least a year or two, you'd probably make more money as a waiter or shop assistant. And the number of people who try to become a lawyer and fail is pretty high. As for doctors? Have you seen how long medical school takes? It's a long, expensive and arduous journey. In comparison, I make excellent money doing something I mostly enjoy, have no formal qualifications in anything relevant (I've got an MA in Philosophy), never struggle to find work, make enough that I can go out and have fun and so on. Yes, I'm not making £2,000 an hour. I don't particularly care. Does that make a second-class citizen? Absolutely not. (Of course, the fact that I can't legally marry another man actually does make me legally a second-class citizen...) My problem is that any reasonable person outside the tech community would look at the situation we find ourselves in work-wise and think "well, if you enjoy building software, that's a pretty fucking sweet deal". And they're right. Bitching about getting paid a pretty good salary for doing something reasonably enjoyable, having a wide variety of options for work across a variety of sectors... that's pretty fucking whiny and entitled. In this discussion, we started with the comparison by the author of the linked piece of animus towards gentrifying technology workers to the persecution that immigrant and trans people face. The point is this: we do actually get paid quite significantly better than most of society, to do something most of us love. The idea that we're either second class citizens or being persecuted qua being engineers/developers (etc.) is laughable and shows a complete lack of perspective relative to the worst off in society. The idea that animus towards tech workers is in some way analagous to the violence, social disapproval, contempt and often legally-sanctioned persecution that immigrants or trans people face is ridiculous. Should tech workers be paid more? Probably. I certainly wouldn't object if I could double my day rate. Am I a second-class citizen? Absolutely not. I'm getting paid what the market pays for people with my skills and experience. Second class CITIZEN would imply some kind of discrimination or persecution by the state. (Again, like not being able to get married.) Being paid hundreds of pounds a day to write code isn't one of those things.
- walshemj 13y ago
  I was comparing a fully qualified "engineer" CENG which has a similar lengthy post first degree CPD element here not self taught programmers. Take say a senior civil engineer who may design large (ie over a £billion) projects most will make less than the average GP does. Your attitude is why we are paid so badly compared to SV