5 ms·

one must ask, why does the US have enemies?

alan_cx 13y ago
More over, why so many perceived enemies who are US citizens? Why is the US government treating its own citizens as enemies of the state? As a non American, I take a perverse sort of comfort from that idea that it looks like the US government is as scared of its own people as it is foreigners. At least we foreigners and American citizens are in it together. Truth is, we are enemies of US government behavior, not the United States of America or its fine people. We critical non Americans are actually arguing for America to be better, not worse. We want it stronger through fairness, justice and, well, just plain decent behavior. Not through cowardice, fear, and the bullying fist. Just imagine how powerful the US could be if the rest of the world actually liked and respected it, rather than feared it. People who fear you are not friends, they are people who will bite back the second they can. However, what I'm not sure of is whether or not the US government is actually as the majority of Americans want it. It is a democracy after all. I realize that democracy is distorted by money and vested interests, but TBH, given what we know today about all that, surely the American voter cant use that as an excuse any more. All those nasty lying attack ad campaigns, the distortion of facts, etc.... we all know how that works. So, surely Americans cant be swayed by that sort of thing? Would it not be a bit daft to know you are being manipulated, but still go along with such manipulations? So, cant people vote smart? I dunno.... Its all a bit of a mess. Oh...... why so many enemies? Fear.
- natermer 13y ago
  > More over, why so many perceived enemies who are US citizens? Why is the US government treating its own citizens as enemies of the state? My guess is because we are told that we live in a Democracy and our vote and our taxes going to aid and abetting the people that are responsible for massive amounts of random acts of violence all over the planet.
- hga 13y ago
  We've got an entrenched ruling class that's very distinct from the bulk of the county, who are remarkably inept, and who's interests are very much not those of the rest of the country's. This includes the Republican Party establishment, GOPe as some are starting to label it. For more details, this article is the best initial exposition I've found, "America’s Ruling Class — And the Perils of Revolution", "The only serious opposition to this arrogant Ruling Party is coming not from feckless Republicans but from what might be called the Country Party — and its vision is revolutionary.": http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-cla... See also the expanded monograph: http://www.amazon.com/The-Ruling-Class-ebook/dp/B0040JHNZW http://www.amazon.com/The-Ruling-Class-ebook/dp/B0040JHNZW And the "revolutionary" bit, of an American nature, not at all in the violent French tradition, explains why the TEA Party et. al. has to be suppressed at all costs, and why the GOPe wasn't and still isn't interested in stopping it per se (e.g. the IRS has not changed its policies). We are existential threats to the GOPe, as e.g. Republican ex-Senator Richard Lugar knows as he's now spending more time with his family.
  - hga 13y ago
    And the author weights in on the current NSA controversy: http://www.libertylawsite.org/2013/06/23/the-ruling-class-consensus-on-domestic-spying/ http://www.libertylawsite.org/2013/06/23/the-ruling-class-co... The author is an old school Cold Warrior, so I'm not dismissing his dismissal of e.g. traffic analysis and the general utility of the NSA's current methods out of hand, I'll have to read it carefully.
mpyne 13y ago
Yes, certainly America is solely to blame for anything bad that should ever happen to it, no matter what the response.
- natermer 13y ago
  How about at least owning up to the shit we do that is bad?
  - mpyne 13y ago
    By all means, let's do that.
    - mtgx 13y ago
      It would help if they wouldn't keep the guy leaking that sort of info in prison for 3 years without a charge, like he was some kind of terrorist.
      - natermer 13y ago
        Bingo.
      - mpyne 13y ago
        Who is this referring to? It's certainly not Manning, whose trial is currently ongoing (and leaked much, much more than "bad things USA did" besides).
      - smsm42 13y ago
        Who was in prison for 3 years without a charge for leaking? Charging is easy, Snowden has been charged within a short time. Why would US government omit such an obvious and easy step as charging in such a clear case as leaking? Who is the guy you are referring to?
- jackmoore 13y ago
  You've contributed nothing with this shameless strawman of an argument. Nobody here made that claim, and probably nobody ever has made that claim. Who are you arguing against?
natermer 13y ago
I donno. We are such a peace loving nation we would never do anything like finance a coup in a oil rich nation so we can murder and imprison the democratically elected leaders of a country in order install a tyrant so that we can hand over ex-British petroleum fields to American corporations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat Then later on we wouldn't do things like finance and arm both sides of a ethic war in the hope they would keep each other weak and easy for us to control. http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rum... Our government wouldn't do terrible things like sell weapons to a enemy of Israel using the government of Israel in order to finance anti-democratic warlords in Central America, even though Congress specifically said supporting such groups was illegal without them approving it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair When that failed we wouldn't do such things as import cocaine into the intercity and destroy the lifes of tens of thousands of poor black Americans in order to finance the warlords in a less discoverable manner. And then murder the people we worked with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_trafficking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_traffic... We didn't do things like smuggling heroin into the USA to finance the various assassinations, political coup, vote rigging, and terorrist training activities that we didn't secretly engage in from the 1950's through the 2000's. http://www.corbettreport.com/the-cia-and-the-drug-trade-eyeopener-preview/ http://www.corbettreport.com/the-cia-and-the-drug-trade-eyeo... We would never do things like that. Because drugs are bad, M'Kay?. Because our US soldiers wouldn't being spending their time killing and dying in foreign lands, while protecting the drug trade and the primary source of income for their adversaries. And if they did that it would only be because we care sooo much for the farmers. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/14066.html http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/14066.html Nope. The USA is innocent. The secret activities that the USA government and their invasions of your privacy, if they even occure, are obviously for your benefit. And if the NSA or CIA or Obama hit squads ever grossly infringe on the constitution they will be very careful to only infringe on it when it's necessary for your own safety. Because, darn it, they just care so much. So yep. This must be it: They hate us because our freedom.
senjmccarthy 13y ago
Because its government thinks having an enemy or several is the way to mobilize the population. It unifies people toward a common aim: e.g., beating the "evil empire" (to steal Reagan's label for the Soviet Union), whoever that is chosen to be, by the US government. It's amusing to watch the US government's selection of "evil empire" as it suits their interests. They will never declare all countries that commit "atrocities" (and there are many) as the evil empires. They will instead carefully select the ones who are not cooperating with the US government to a degree the US government deems satisfactory. Those countries who defy the bequests of Washington are labelled "evil" and, sadly, a large percetange American population becomes unified against them. Not only the "evil" foreign government, but also to some extent the foreign country as a whole, including its people. Of course the foreign government turn around and tells its people to distrust the US, and a large percentage listen, and in my humble opinion we're all worse off for it. Because as someone said it another comment on another Snowden article, people of different countries, aside from governments and propaganda, are generally curious about one another, and friendly.

More over, why so many perceived enemies who are US citizens? Why is the US government treating its own citizens as enemies of the state? As a non American, I take a perverse sort of comfort from that idea that it looks like the US government is as scared of its own people as it is foreigners. At least we foreigners and American citizens are in it together. Truth is, we are enemies of US government behavior, not the United States of America or its fine people. We critical non Americans are actually arguing for America to be better, not worse. We want it stronger through fairness, justice and, well, just plain decent behavior. Not through cowardice, fear, and the bullying fist. Just imagine how powerful the US could be if the rest of the world actually liked and respected it, rather than feared it. People who fear you are not friends, they are people who will bite back the second they can. However, what I'm not sure of is whether or not the US government is actually as the majority of Americans want it. It is a democracy after all. I realize that democracy is distorted by money and vested interests, but TBH, given what we know today about all that, surely the American voter cant use that as an excuse any more. All those nasty lying attack ad campaigns, the distortion of facts, etc.... we all know how that works. So, surely Americans cant be swayed by that sort of thing? Would it not be a bit daft to know you are being manipulated, but still go along with such manipulations? So, cant people vote smart? I dunno.... Its all a bit of a mess. Oh...... why so many enemies? Fear.

natermer 13y ago
> More over, why so many perceived enemies who are US citizens? Why is the US government treating its own citizens as enemies of the state? My guess is because we are told that we live in a Democracy and our vote and our taxes going to aid and abetting the people that are responsible for massive amounts of random acts of violence all over the planet.
hga 13y ago
We've got an entrenched ruling class that's very distinct from the bulk of the county, who are remarkably inept, and who's interests are very much not those of the rest of the country's. This includes the Republican Party establishment, GOPe as some are starting to label it. For more details, this article is the best initial exposition I've found, "America’s Ruling Class — And the Perils of Revolution", "The only serious opposition to this arrogant Ruling Party is coming not from feckless Republicans but from what might be called the Country Party — and its vision is revolutionary.": http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-cla... See also the expanded monograph: http://www.amazon.com/The-Ruling-Class-ebook/dp/B0040JHNZW http://www.amazon.com/The-Ruling-Class-ebook/dp/B0040JHNZW And the "revolutionary" bit, of an American nature, not at all in the violent French tradition, explains why the TEA Party et. al. has to be suppressed at all costs, and why the GOPe wasn't and still isn't interested in stopping it per se (e.g. the IRS has not changed its policies). We are existential threats to the GOPe, as e.g. Republican ex-Senator Richard Lugar knows as he's now spending more time with his family.
- hga 13y ago
  And the author weights in on the current NSA controversy: http://www.libertylawsite.org/2013/06/23/the-ruling-class-consensus-on-domestic-spying/ http://www.libertylawsite.org/2013/06/23/the-ruling-class-co... The author is an old school Cold Warrior, so I'm not dismissing his dismissal of e.g. traffic analysis and the general utility of the NSA's current methods out of hand, I'll have to read it carefully.

mpyne 13y ago

Yes, certainly America is solely to blame for anything bad that should ever happen to it, no matter what the response.

natermer 13y ago
How about at least owning up to the shit we do that is bad?
- mpyne 13y ago
  By all means, let's do that.
  - mtgx 13y ago
    It would help if they wouldn't keep the guy leaking that sort of info in prison for 3 years without a charge, like he was some kind of terrorist.
    - natermer 13y ago
      Bingo.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Who is this referring to? It's certainly not Manning, whose trial is currently ongoing (and leaked much, much more than "bad things USA did" besides).
    - smsm42 13y ago
      Who was in prison for 3 years without a charge for leaking? Charging is easy, Snowden has been charged within a short time. Why would US government omit such an obvious and easy step as charging in such a clear case as leaking? Who is the guy you are referring to?
jackmoore 13y ago
You've contributed nothing with this shameless strawman of an argument. Nobody here made that claim, and probably nobody ever has made that claim. Who are you arguing against?

natermer 13y ago

I donno. We are such a peace loving nation we would never do anything like finance a coup in a oil rich nation so we can murder and imprison the democratically elected leaders of a country in order install a tyrant so that we can hand over ex-British petroleum fields to American corporations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat Then later on we wouldn't do things like finance and arm both sides of a ethic war in the hope they would keep each other weak and easy for us to control. http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rum... Our government wouldn't do terrible things like sell weapons to a enemy of Israel using the government of Israel in order to finance anti-democratic warlords in Central America, even though Congress specifically said supporting such groups was illegal without them approving it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair When that failed we wouldn't do such things as import cocaine into the intercity and destroy the lifes of tens of thousands of poor black Americans in order to finance the warlords in a less discoverable manner. And then murder the people we worked with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_trafficking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_traffic... We didn't do things like smuggling heroin into the USA to finance the various assassinations, political coup, vote rigging, and terorrist training activities that we didn't secretly engage in from the 1950's through the 2000's. http://www.corbettreport.com/the-cia-and-the-drug-trade-eyeopener-preview/ http://www.corbettreport.com/the-cia-and-the-drug-trade-eyeo... We would never do things like that. Because drugs are bad, M'Kay?. Because our US soldiers wouldn't being spending their time killing and dying in foreign lands, while protecting the drug trade and the primary source of income for their adversaries. And if they did that it would only be because we care sooo much for the farmers. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/14066.html http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/14066.html Nope. The USA is innocent. The secret activities that the USA government and their invasions of your privacy, if they even occure, are obviously for your benefit. And if the NSA or CIA or Obama hit squads ever grossly infringe on the constitution they will be very careful to only infringe on it when it's necessary for your own safety. Because, darn it, they just care so much. So yep. This must be it: They hate us because our freedom.

senjmccarthy 13y ago

Because its government thinks having an enemy or several is the way to mobilize the population. It unifies people toward a common aim: e.g., beating the "evil empire" (to steal Reagan's label for the Soviet Union), whoever that is chosen to be, by the US government. It's amusing to watch the US government's selection of "evil empire" as it suits their interests. They will never declare all countries that commit "atrocities" (and there are many) as the evil empires. They will instead carefully select the ones who are not cooperating with the US government to a degree the US government deems satisfactory. Those countries who defy the bequests of Washington are labelled "evil" and, sadly, a large percetange American population becomes unified against them. Not only the "evil" foreign government, but also to some extent the foreign country as a whole, including its people. Of course the foreign government turn around and tells its people to distrust the US, and a large percentage listen, and in my humble opinion we're all worse off for it. Because as someone said it another comment on another Snowden article, people of different countries, aside from governments and propaganda, are generally curious about one another, and friendly.